Aggression and when to apply it?

[Monty3038]

I asked this in my operations post, but I am going to pose the question here as well as I am trying to focus my aggression on hands properly...

I watched a video here on the site last night about turbo 6.50's, so this might not apply to regular speed SNGs but here goes... please comment any way you see fit... even to call me a donk if necessary.

(all questions apply to later rounds of a SNG... level 5 or above with an M under 15)

When faced with later positions, CO, Button, SB and everyone folds ahead of you, is it appropriate to shove any two cards as a fairly standard practice?

When in later positions with only limpers ahead, and not a large number of them, say one limper ahead, on a fairly tight table should any two cards be sufficient for shove-overs or does that mostly apply to turbos?

How do you react to a shove over when you are BB and you are reasonably stacked (M>10) in level 5 or above?

Obviously I'm working on my stealing, trying to figure out when is the best time to steal the blinds or just fold it away, struggling with this fact and it is getting me in trouble... I keep coming up a little short... thoughts?

[CoccoBill]

When faced with later positions, CO, Button, SB and everyone folds ahead of you, is it appropriate to shove any two cards as a fairly standard practice?

Absolutely not. From SB if it's folded to you yes, from BTN on certain occasions and from CO almost never. This is exactly what SNGWiz/SNGPT are for.

When in later positions with only limpers ahead, and not a large number of them, say one limper ahead, on a fairly tight table should any two cards be sufficient for shove-overs or does that mostly apply to turbos?

Absolutely not, it's always read/situation/stack size/etc dependent.

How do you react to a shove over when you are BB and you are reasonably stacked (M>10) in level 5 or above?

Depends on a lot of things. See my first answer.

Obviously I'm working on my stealing, trying to figure out when is the best time to steal the blinds or just fold it away, struggling with this fact and it is getting me in trouble... I keep coming up a little short... thoughts?

My thought is get SNGWiz or SNGPT and play around with them. Playing like you describe in FR speed SNGs is guaranteed to be -EV, turbos are slightly different but these "rules" don't apply to them either.

It's all about well-timed targeted aggression, not about batsh1t foam-from-your-mouth aggression. There's no simple one-size-fits-all rule to push/fold, you'll need to keep reviewing your tournies in the aforementioned tools, keep playing with ranges and post hands here for comment. In time you'll start to get a hang of it.

[Monty3038]

[quote="CoccoBill"]

It's all about well-timed targeted aggression, not about batsh1t foam-from-your-mouth aggression. There's no simple one-size-fits-all rule to push/fold, you'll need to keep reviewing your tournies in the aforementioned tools, keep playing with ranges and post hands here for comment. In time you'll start to get a hang of it.

Thanks for the info CoccoBill, but obviously I'm getting mixed messages here.

I have been playing for 6 months now, have been working to build my game but have hit a wall. Aggression seems to be a factor and I'm trying to sort it out. I'm trying to understand the how and where to focus the aggression thing, as ChrisBCritter and others have been trying to teach me... I was referred to the videos here on the site as well, and after watching one about the 6.50 turbos and his aggressive moves in the SB and on the Button these questions were prompted.

I've already expired my trial of SNGWIZ and didn't really understand how to use it properly apparently as I didn't gain a lot from it. That was 4 months ago though, so now might be different.

For the second question, I should have probably clarified more... if the table has apparently tightened up with everyone seeking to get ITM and playing tighter, what would be more appropriate, shoving any two reasonable cards or waiting for only power cards?

Question 3... obviously but basically what I'm looking for is people's opinions on how they react to the shove by the SB... does it feel like a steal, and do you call with any two decent cards or only with top hands?

Your line about aggression is the point of the post.

Please define what you consider to be well-timed targeted aggression, that is what I'm trying to find out... what is 'well timed targeted aggression'?

For hand histories see my operation post, 'Low Buy In poker-learning to win" or the hands I have posted all over here.

[CoccoBill]

I've already expired my trial of SNGWIZ and didn't really understand how to use it properly apparently as I didn't gain a lot from it. That was 4 months ago though, so now might be different.

I know investing $50-100 for a tool is a lot and doesn't seem to make sense when its half or more of your BR, but it really is that important of a tool that you should make your first priority to buy it. That is, if you want to learn proper SNG late game play.

For the second question, I should have probably clarified more... if the table has apparently tightened up with everyone seeking to get ITM and playing tighter, what would be more appropriate, shoving any two reasonable cards or waiting for only power cards?

You're trying to find a simple solution when there is none. The decisions are not always simple even after you know "correct" push/fold play, there are just too many variables that affect the game in many different ways. Apart from saying "yes, it's generally correct to shove ATC from SB when folded to you and you have 10BB or less in your stack" there's not too many simple guidelines, and even the above doesn't apply to every situation.

Both of your 2 options are correct or incorrect depending on the exact situation. In general you stay tight out of position, steal when you can and try to extract the most out of your big hands.

Question 3... obviously but basically what I'm looking for is people's opinions on how they react to the shove by the SB... does it feel like a steal, and do you call with any two decent cards or only with top hands?

Again, depends on your opponent, the situation, blind levels, how many players are left, your cards etc. Has you opponent been shoving wide? What has he shown so far? What are his stats? Where are the big stacks and small stacks? Why haven't you bought SNGWiz yet?

Your line about aggression is the point of the post.

Please define what you consider to be well-timed targeted aggression, that is what I'm trying to find out... what is 'well timed targeted aggression'?

Basically any situation where you think your opponent will fold to a steal, fold a better hand or call with a worse hand.

[Ryski]

Hmmm, aggression and when to apply.

First off, it is entirely based on reads, position, and stack sizes. I also suggest getting SnG Wiz as well. My trial expired and I haven't bought it only because I'm planning a wedding but I've also used it enough to just kinda know and I can live without it for awhile....but definitely not forever. It's very good to check marginal hands where you aren't sure if you made the correct decision or not.

Btw, gonna give a shoutout to fjuanl and his video he posted awhile back here:
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...2s-t70699.html

I strongly suggest you watch it for a couple reasons:

1) It opened my eyes to a number of things but mostly playing tight early.
2) On one table ( upper right ) he completely abused the BB when he was in the SB because the guy was extremely tight. He was pushing a HUGE range here. This was read dependent.
3) He brought up SnG Wiz during gameplay to check on whether it thought he made the right decision. He also adjusted the calling range of the other players to see if it affected the decision. Kinda shows how to use SNG Wiz correclty and the tutorial is nice too. Once you use this you'll have most of your questions answered -- at least from the push/fold poker perspective.

Note: Btw don't bring up SnG Wiz during gameplay anymore since PokerStars banned it. Bring it up after gameplay and when Pokerstars or wherever you play is closed.

[drmcboy]

SNGwiz is NOT the most important thing you could buy. HOH will improve your game a lot more because you'll start thinking about why, not when, you should be moving in. I don't own SNGwiz and somehow I managed to make a little money playing SNGs. I can state with complete confidence you can beat any level of SNG without having more than a basic understanding of ICM and any level below 50 without even that.

If you've already read HOH, then go back and read the piece at the very beginning again where he talks about what a 'hand' is. You're giving us two pieces of info (M < 15, folded to you in position X) and expecting us to tell you how to play a hand from there. That's impossible. Post some examples and we can go from there.

[CoccoBill]

SNGwiz is NOT the most important thing you could buy. HOH will improve your game a lot more because you'll start thinking about why, not when, you should be moving in. I don't own SNGwiz and somehow I managed to make a little money playing SNGs. I can state with complete confidence you can beat any level of SNG without having more than a basic understanding of ICM and any level below 50 without even that.

If you've already read HOH, then go back and read the piece at the very beginning again where he talks about what a 'hand' is. You're giving us two pieces of info (M < 15, folded to you in position X) and expecting us to tell you how to play a hand from there. That's impossible. Post some examples and we can go from there.

I agree completely, but the question seemed to be "how do I learn it easy and quickly" not "how do I learn it properly".

[Monty3038]

I already have finished HOH and will go back and re-read the section, as well as take a look at the video quoted above.

I know I'm being generic, but honestly if this is so read dependent... how are you managing more than one table?

Here is my point... if I have to have a read on every player, every situation, every possibility, how is that all possible with so little time per hand and multi-tabling... it isn't, not for the average joe... and I know a lot of average joe's making money at poker. One of whom I'd like to slap because he is a total donk at the $11 level and winning.

I'm very frustrated because I'm not trying to short cut the system, am working my butt off it seems but am stuck.

I've reached a certain point in my game where my game seems to be ok but I have days where I am too careful, days when I am too aggressive, and it is all holding my BR back... I'm kind of stuck in a quagmire for the last 3-4 weeks after some impressive strides... there has to be a key.

Anyone willing to look at hand histories please look at http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...in-t68732.html

I'll start reviewing tonight before the FTR500 if time permits, otherwise will be this weekend again before I can devote time to the study.

[taipan168]

OP, I'm happy to look through some HHs if you want to post them in this forum. I know you have an operations thread but I don't often look in that forum and you'll probably get more responses from other SNG players in this forum.

SNGwiz is NOT the most important thing you could buy. HOH will improve your game a lot more because you'll start thinking about why, not when, you should be moving in. I don't own SNGwiz and somehow I managed to make a little money playing SNGs. I can state with complete confidence you can beat any level of SNG without having more than a basic understanding of ICM and any level below 50 without even that.

SNG Wiz is the most important piece of SOFTWARE you can buy (the most important one you don't need to buy is of course Pokerstove).

As for beating any level of SNG with only a basic understanding of ICM and any level below $50 without that, that's another one of those assertions (that I often make) that's hard if not impossible to prove. Sure, you could beat the $60 turbos for a 1% ROI if you only knew basic ICM but isn't increasing that to 8-10% with a very good understanding of ICM far better?

I agree 100% about considering all elements of a hand rather than just cards and stack size however. For completeness' sake, here is what Harrington says in the beginning of HOH 1:

Elements of a Hand:
1. What's the status of the tournament?
2. How many players at your table?
3. Who are the players at your table?
4. How does your stack compare to the blinds and antes?
5. How big are the other stacks at your table?
6. Where do you sit in relation to the aggressive and passive players?
7. What bets have been made in front of you?
8. How many active players are left after you act?
9. What are the pot odds?
10. What is your position at the table after the flop?
11. What are your cards?