33 first hand of (6.50) turbo - I think this is horrible

[Phantaroth]

Full Tilt Poker Game #6781902402: $6 + $0.50 Sit & Go (Turbo) (51550385), Table 1 - 15/30 - No Limit Hold'em - 9:39:26 ET - 2008/06/11
Seat 1: olrac1 (1,500)
Seat 2: poo1982 (1,500)
Seat 3: Bullets1001 (1,500)
Seat 4: MadTownMell (1,500)
Seat 5: Sghango (1,500)
Seat 6: Braxen4590 (1,500)
Seat 7: 666badbeat666 (1,500)
Seat 8: SuperAstaroth (1,500)
Seat 9: ugotflushed (1,500)
olrac1 posts the small blind of 15
poo1982 posts the big blind of 30
The button is in seat #9
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to SuperAstaroth [3s 3c]
Bullets1001 folds
MadTownMell folds
Sghango folds
Braxen4590 folds
666badbeat666 raises to 120
SuperAstaroth calls 120
ugotflushed folds
olrac1 folds
poo1982 calls 90
*** FLOP *** [4s 8s 4h]
poo1982 checks
666badbeat666 has 15 seconds left to act
666badbeat666 bets 270
SuperAstaroth calls 270
poo1982 folds
*** TURN *** [4s 8s 4h] [Jd]
666badbeat666 checks
SuperAstaroth bets 1,110, and is all in

I don't know. I like how I played until the turn, but I don't know what I should do on the turn.

It's also possible everything else I did was bad too, so fire away.

[taipan168]

Personally I fold this preflop, you don't really have correct implied odds to play for set value on the flop.

On the flop, definite fold for me. If you're calling a raise with a small-medium pocket pair, set or forget.

As played, on the turn I check behind for sure and hope to get to showdown without putting any more chips in the pot. I would only call a small bet on the river if I checked behind on the turn.

[Nakamura]

I too usually try to avoid playing these small pairs at the beginning of a tourney. The problem is you have to flop a set to continue past the flop. Even then you need to get another person to call you down to make it pay.

I'm usually folding this unless there are loads of limpers and I'm in a late position.

[Stacks]

ez fold here preflop. As taipan said, we aren't gettng the correct pot odds for a set and 33 can't play as an overpair. A hand like this I'm looking to limp in and see if I can hit a set and then go from there. But I'm not raising this anywhere, only limping. Might call a very small raise like 60 if I'm sure I will get to see the flop for that amount (only because the effective stack is >2x the amount to call). Anything more and you toss it quick as posisble.

At this point in a SNG we want to make sure when we get into a pot we are a significant favorite if at all possible. 33 is a significant favorite to only a few hands (22/23). Other than that hand, we are either racing preflop or a dog. So just toss it and fine a spot when we are likely to be the dominator to ge the chips in.

[Im_new]

Might call a very small raise like 60 if I'm sure I will get to see the flop for that amount (only because the effective stack is >2x the amount to call).

Can someone explain effective stack?

[GatorJH]

Might call a very small raise like 60 if I'm sure I will get to see the flop for that amount (only because the effective stack is >2x the amount to call).

Can someone explain effective stack?

The effective stack is the amount of money that is currently in the pot.

[TLR]

You nned to have very good read on villian that he has 2 overs in order to call the turn, fold preflop or fold turn.

[Stacks]

Might call a very small raise like 60 if I'm sure I will get to see the flop for that amount (only because the effective stack is >2x the amount to call).

Can someone explain effective stack?

The effective stack is the amount of money that is currently in the pot.

Mr. GatorJH, I have always understood effective stack in a different way. I could be wrong, but my understanding is that the effective stack is the amount of money you can stand to win in a hand. For instance, say you get into a hand with a villian who only has 600 chips in his stack, and you have 1200. I refer to the effective stack as the smaller of the two stacks. In this case the effective stack is only 600 chips. So villian raises to 60 you are only getting a little better than 10:1 implied odds if you hit you set and he takes it all the way against you.

Amirite?

[taipan168]

Might call a very small raise like 60 if I'm sure I will get to see the flop for that amount (only because the effective stack is >2x the amount to call).

Can someone explain effective stack?

The effective stack is the amount of money that is currently in the pot.

Mr. GatorJH, I have always understood effective stack in a different way. I could be wrong, but my understanding is that the effective stack is the amount of money you can stand to win in a hand. For instance, say you get into a hand with a villian who only has 600 chips in his stack, and you have 1200. I refer to the effective stack as the smaller of the two stacks. In this case the effective stack is only 600 chips. So villian raises to 60 you are only getting a little better than 10:1 implied odds if you hit you set and he takes it all the way against you.

Amirite?

Yes, XxStacks is right here. The effective stack is the shorter of your stack or your opp's stack. In this case the implied odds are pretty marginal because we need to call 120 when we can win ~1500 which is only about 12x the chips we need to call. Since we hit a set 1 time in 8.5, opp would need to stack off 70% of the time we hit a set for us to justify making the call, and it's pretty unlikely that this happens this often.

[Stacks]

Regarding taipan's post about why we don't have the implied odds. Generally a good way to decide whether we have the correct implied odds etc to call with a hand that we know must play for set value is to compare the size you must call to the effective stack. Most players adhere to a 15:1 or 20:1 rule (also have heard the 5 to 10 rule).

If you adhere to the 15:1 rule, there must be 15 times the size of the bet/raise you must call in the effective stack. Same with the 20:1 rule (however, 20 times ldo).

The 5 to 10 rule, I believe works out to be the same. If the amount you must call is <5% of the effective stack then you have correct implied odds. If the amount you must call is >10% of the effective stack then don't call.

Using this as the case you have to call 120 and to see the flop and the effective stack is (1500 - 120 = 1380) and (1380/120 = 11.5). So we don't meet any of our rules, so we fold.

Now regarding which rule to chose, I'm not certain. When I first started I heard use the 15:1 rule. Now, I generally follow the 20:1 rule. Maybe someone better at math can determine which is best, considering how often they have to stack off to make it reasonable.

[taipan168]

The 5 to 10 rule, I believe works out to be the same. If the amount you must call is <5% of the effective stack then you have correct implied odds. If the amount you must call is >10% of the effective stack then don't call...

To be a little more precise, the 5/10 guideline for calling a raise with a small-medium pocket pair and having correct implied odds is that if the amount you need to call is 5% or less of the chips you can win, then you should tend to call. If the amount is 10% or greater, then you should tend to fold. Anywhere in between is a judgement call.

...Now regarding which rule to chose, I'm not certain. When I first started I heard use the 15:1 rule. Now, I generally follow the 20:1 rule. Maybe someone better at math can determine which is best, considering how often they have to stack off to make it reasonable.

This is read dependent. For example, against a very bad player who spews chips with any piece of the board, any draw or any overcard to the board then you may be able to call as much as 10% of your stack preflop and still have correct implied odds because he will stack off very often against your set. Conversely against a very good regular who knows you are a regular you would not really want to be calling off more than 5% because even if they hit TPTK they may slow down and not lose all of their stack.