5nl HH- Beginners post, be gentle!

[Wndllll]

Hey folks, somewhat encouraged by Robbs "Noobies first 5k hands" post, I thought I'd face your wrath and post up a hand that really frustrated me recently. I'd just sat at this table and why I even initially played the hand I'm not sure - iirc >40% players were seeing flops from the list so maybe I thought this was one I could sneak through purely due to the calls and hope for a FD.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (6 handed)

BB ($5)
UTG ($5.03)
MP ($8.86)
CO ($8.48)
Button ($0.65)
Hero ($4.60)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Ac 7c
UTG calls $0.05, MP calls $0.05, 1 fold, Button calls $0.05, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($0.25) Qc Jh Kc (5 players)
Hero bets $0.25, BB folds, UTG calls $0.25, MP calls $0.25, Button raises to $0.6, Hero calls $0.35, UTG raises to $2, MP folds, Hero calls $1.40.

Turn: ($5.10) 2h(3 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $2.98 (All-In), Hero calls $2.55 (All-In).

River: ($10.20) 6s(3 players, 2 all-in)

Final Pot: $10.20

Results in white below:
UTG has Ad Td (straight, ace high).
Button has (straight, ace high).
Hero has Ac 7c (high card, ace).
Outcome: UTG wins $10.63.

Purely through pot odds I figured I had 13 outs (should I count less if I considered it likely he had one of the 10's?)on the turn and therefore *just* squeaked enough value to call the AI but a lot of this hand just makes my head hurt.
Cheers folks.

(sorry for format, I can't post the card images until 10 posts )

[ponyboy]

Two things you could have done. First is obviously fold it preflop but you decided to take a small investment to see if you could flop a flush. Since you didn't and someone raised your c-bet you fold. Not only a raise but then another raise behind means you are beat.

The reason people say not to play Ax suited in a multiway pot is precisely because you get yourself into situations like this one where you are facing people who could have anything from A10 to KQ, KJ, etc all of which beat you. You might win big once in a while when you hit that flush, but you will likely lose just as big if you don't.

[Keilah]

completing with a7s after 3 limpers is a no-brainer, so no mistakes there.

That's a super-action board so I wouldn't bother with betting out first to act. Villains will do it for you and you get to see if your flush/straight completes for cheaper.

PS you have only 12 outs, don't count the Tc twice.
PPS and onnly 9 of them are clean, if the Ts/Td/Th hits you'll be splitting the pot.

[Keilah]

The reason people say not to play Ax suited in a multiway pot is ...

because they're retards?


limped multiway pots is exactly where you want to play Axs.

OOP sucks but w/e you payed 0.5bb to see the flop.

[TonyB73]

The flop is where this really went awry. I really, really suck postflop, but I'm going to have a shot at this to hopefully test my own reasoning and help you at the same time. Regs, please flame away at this.

No-one showed any strength pre-flop, so on the flop it is highly unlikely anyone has a monster like KK, QQ or JJ. On a five-way KQJ flop though someone has definitely connected for at least a pair, and if you have a couple of habitual limpers (ie. 30/3 types) then KJ, QJ and even KQ could easily be out there. You have a gutshot and a nut flush draw, giving you potentially 12 outs (don't count 10c twice), with the other 3 aces maybe counting for another one. The flush will almost certainly be the nuts as long as the board doesn't pair (ignoring a miniscule straight flush possibility), but with 5 players you are most likely up against another A so the straight will likely split it, so I would discount the straight and other As fairly heavily and count, say, 10 outs in total. Using the rule of 2 and 4, you have a roughly 40% chance of hitting by the river.

So should we betting this draw into a five-way pot? First question is why would we bet it. Cbet? Well you weren't the preflop aggressor so it wouldn't strictly be a cbet, and anyway its a very, very bad idea to do it into a five-way pot OOP with such a connected flop. You might thin the field, but you won't win the pot there and then. For value? You don't have a hand to value bet with. I've read Robb suggest that he is happy to felt a nut flush draw on the flop at 10NL (and presumably 5NL too), but you're going to get stacked 2 of every 3 times you do it so I'm not that keen on it. Initiative/pot control/blocking bet? Maybe, but when you do it light it can easily backfire in a multiway pot like this because you just have too many to act behind you. You may just get called if a single pair is the best holding or a bigger hand decides to slowplay - very, very likely line at 5NL - but you're then in a sticky spot if miss your flush on the turn. Much bigger pot, probably still behind, and staying in getting expensive without a made hand. Overall I think I would check and see how cheaply I might be able to see a turn card.

When you get raised, you have 35c to call into a $1.60 pot, or roughly 4.5 to 1 pot odds, which sounds great with a nut flush draw. In fact, its about your chance of hitting it on the turn alone. BUT you also have two players to act after you who may be slowplaying good hands, so it may end up costing you a whole lot more than $0.35 to see the turn. You and both of them have OK stacks behind, but they haven't shown any aggression at all and neither has called button's raise yet, and button is all in, so your implied odds are questionable. All that said, I think if they called your initial bet they will probably call button's raise as well. All in all I would probably call here as well, but I think its quite marginal.

After UTG's re-raise, you have $1.40 to call in a $3.70 pot. Thats now 2.5 to 1, which is sufficient odds to call a 3 to 2 chance (assuming 40% as above). BUT, you now have two players showing strength, and there's a very good chance at least one of them has an A, so you hit the straight you only get your money back at best, and if you hit another A your kicker sucks. So I would discount them altogether which leaves you with the flush at slightly better than 3 to 1. You also know that you're not going to get past the turn cheaply, and you would have only $2.50 behind, so if UTG does as expected and gets it all-in on the turn, you would have to pay $3.90 in total ($1.40 now and $2.50 on the turn) to win $6 if you hit your flush. You lose $3.90 65% of the time and win $6 35% of the time, which is -EV. Fold.

On the turn, if you hit the straight (1 in 15 or so, given 10c is a flush) you maybe win it, but more likely split it and win $0.50 if you split it with UTG and something like $4 if you split it with btn (couldn't be bothered doing all the math). You hit the flush (1 in 4.5 or so), you win. Anything else you lose. You have to pay $2.50 to play it. So:
Straight: (3% x $0.50) + (4% x $4.00) = +$0.17 or so
Flush: 18% x $7.50 = +$1.35 or so
Everything else: 75% x -$2.50 = -$1.88 or so

Thats EV of -$0.36. Even if you count the straight as a win against both villains every time you're still behind. Fold.

[vegascoop]

I complete in the sb 100% here obv.

I would usually check the flop intending the c/r and happy to get all in.

I would only lead if I had good reason to suspect someone would raise and I could go all in. Bet / 3Bet line.

As played, when button raises to 60 cents, I'd make a big reraise or probably just shove.

I didn't read too much of the pot odds analysis above but don't forget fold equity. You don't want to be calling big flop bets with this hand that wants to see two more cards. The goal for this hand is getting it all in where your hand value + FE = +EV. We'll be taking the same line with sets and they'll be folding and/or drawing slim alot. Don't sweat the results. I would probably laugh pretty hard if they both turned up AT and I didn't improve. Reload.

[nutsinho]

this thread makes my head hurt

[Wndllll]

So should we betting this draw into a five-way pot? First question is why would we bet it. Cbet? Well you weren't the preflop aggressor so it wouldn't strictly be a cbet, and anyway its a very, very bad idea to do it into a five-way pot OOP with such a connected flop..... Overall I think I would check and see how cheaply I might be able to see a turn card.

Yeah as you and vega and Keilah all say, on that board I shouldn't have led out - I've begun almost as habit to lead out when I have 8+ outs but where I can improve is to consider board texture more I guess (not to mention being OOP in a 5-way!).

Thanks also for clearing up my 13-outs-error, that's another one of those little details that all add up in the end heh. At the time I considered myself happy to split the pot as there was still money to be had from the button - I had no idea that when calculated it would equal such -ev.

this thread makes my head hurt

Lol aye.

[ATOTHEC101]

complete from sb fine, never anything wrong here, we want to be playing this sort of hand multiway. From then on id probably just check call one reraise then fold if i air ball turn. As played fold to the flop 4 bet as youll be basically pot stuck after that and your likely only gonna win the pot outright wid a club so your equity isnt great.

[Outlaw]

Welcome to FTR.

This is a common situation we all have gotten into. You flop 9 outs to the nuts and have trouble getting away from the hand. Let pot odds rule your decisions here. There are several good books out there/threads on this board that talk about pot odds and implied odds.

O

[Wndllll]

Ok, thanks again for that. I figure I might as well fire another one at you folks as I picked up some useful stuff last time. The following hand frustrated me equally as much as the first but for diffferent reasons. Basically I feel like I'm missing value in situations like this but I'll mention more afterwards:
MP1 is 70/10/0.6 over 30
CO is 48/18/0.75 over 30

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (7 handed)
CO ($5.56)
Button ($9.44)
SB ($3.10)
Hero ($15.52)
UTG ($4.80)
MP1 ($10.06)
MP2 ($9.38)

Preflop: Hero is BB with KcTs
1 fold, MP1 calls $0.05, 1 fold, CO calls $0.05, 1 fold, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: ($0.20) Qs 9s Jc (4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.15, MP1 calls $0.15, CO calls $0.15, SB folds.

Turn: ($0.65) 7s (3 players)
Hero checks, MP1 checks, CO bets $0.35, Hero calls $0.35, MP1 calls $0.35.

River: ($1.70) 3d(3 players)
Hero checks, MP1 checks, CO checks.

Final Pot: $1.70

Results in white below:
Hero has Kc Ts (straight, king high).
MP1 doesn't show.
CO has Js 7c (two pair, jacks and sevens).
Outcome: Hero wins $1.70.

Right... so I flop what I assume is the nuts but with 2 spades on the board it just makes me immediately nervous. It's an unraised pot of, what, $0.20 so I figure a 3/4 pot bet will at least get me some action on a flop like that. Then when a 3rd spade comes I basically shut down but felt at the time and afterwards that I should have continued betting or raised the CO. They seemed to be crazily loose at the time so I was worried they could be playing anything suited.
How do I get a more analytical view of how to play this hand? Should I have pushed hard and if the flush comes then so be it? I simply feel I'm missing value in situations like this, especially when I was probably going to call pretty much any bet right to the end of the hand

[Keilah]

bet pot on flop, not 3/4 pot.
fire again on turn, they may have flush or may not, if you get raised you can fold.
Turn bet was small and came after 2 checks - nobody's showing strength. I'd probly lead the river and call smallish raises but i assume you were planning to c/c which is semidecent.

The crazy loose stats means they'll play a lot of hands other than the flush. Don't look at every scare card and think of the ways it scares you.


Also post new hands in new threads plz thx.

Edit: omfg I just looked at the villain stats, both are under 1 AF, just bet, bet, bet, they'll raise if they have a flush and they'll call with a million worse hands.