Operation: The Long, Long Road to 25NL

[TonyB73]

OK folks, May really sucked. So I've decided its time for some discipline and accountability, and the best way is to start an operation!

A bit of history: I made my first deposit of $50 on Poker Stars in February, with my only experience being some play money games on Stars and PokerRoom and a handful of home games.

I played a couple hundred hands at 10NL (knowing nothing about bankroll management) and donked off about a buy-in, and then thought I'd better get more serious before I run out of $$$.

So I dropped down to 2NL and tried to learned the basics. I read as many online poker strategy articles as I could find, bought TOP, NLHETAP and HOH1 (read the first two and halfway through HOH1 now), and lurked on the forums here and at a couple of other sites (this is the best one though!). Absolutely destroyed 2NL for more then 40ptBB/100 and moved up to 5NL within about 2,500 hands, but have found the going tougher since. I've now played about 15K hands overall for a winrate of a bit over 10ptBB/100, and my roll has reached the lofty heights of $128. I was at $175 about a week ago at a much better winrate, but the past 2K hands have been a shocking run of bad cards, coolers and the odd bad play. I guess it was I have to expect it though, especially considering I probably had a very good run earlier on at 2NL.

Stats time! Lifetime I play 23/16/6, mostly at FR. However I've moved to 6-max for the past 4K hands or so and have been playing 26/18/5 there. A couple of other choice stats:
W$WSF - 44.19
WTSD - 17.81
W$SD - 48.14 (although less than 40 at 6-max - maybe not picking my spots well enough)
3Bet - 3.56
A2S - 46.14

Any feedback on these would be much appreciated. I would like to close the gap between VPIP and PFR a bit, probably by lowering my VPIP, and I think I might be a bit too aggressive post-flop, but overall I think that my stats aren't too bad?

Anyway, my overall aim is to learn to play poker properly and move up the stakes. I also believe in setting shorter term achievable goals, so the three immediate ones are:
(1) Clear my Stars bonus before it expires - I'm about halfway there, but its hard work earning VPPs at 5NL!!
(2) Move up to 10NL as soon as I can - already 12K hands at 5NL and only $128, so still a long way to go.
(3) Make the roll to hit 25NL - $625. Goal is to do that by the time my Stars bonus expires, which is the second week of August.

I plan to update here often, vent, boast, ask questions, post hands and pretty much indulge myself in the hope that someone out there might take some interest, and perhaps even impart some advice from time to time. Judging by my past week or so I certainly need all the help I can get!

[AlphaKennyBody]

Good luck!

One word of advice: don't let achieving your bonus delusion you into playing higher limits (especially as the deadline approaches). I dunno if it'll apply to you at all, but I remember early on that I stupidly moved up to 25NL with like a $60 roll in a frantic attempt to clear my bonus. The result: I cleared the bonus, but played probably the worst poker I've ever played, and only added $10 to my BR when it was all said and done (whereas, if I just focused on grinding it out, I probably would've made more).

So yeah, don't do that.

[vaks]

tighten up i 6max and call preflop less...

especially in 6max you want to be the aggressor preflop... you want your vpip to be only slightly higher than your PFR
something like 18/16 or 14/12 etc. or a 26/23 or so would be pretty good, but at the low stakes youd rather be more TAG than lag so 19/16 and lower would prob be best...
and ya 6 AF with a 26/16 is prettty aggro...

[TonyB73]

Good luck!

One word of advice: don't let achieving your bonus delusion you into playing higher limits (especially as the deadline approaches). I dunno if it'll apply to you at all, but I remember early on that I stupidly moved up to 25NL with like a $60 roll in a frantic attempt to clear my bonus. The result: I cleared the bonus, but played probably the worst poker I've ever played, and only added $10 to my BR when it was all said and done (whereas, if I just focused on grinding it out, I probably would've made more).

So yeah, don't do that.

Thanks!

Yeah, I had thought about doing something like that if I get near the end and need to get a move on. But you're right - its not worth it if I donk off most of the bonus trying to get there.

The other option is to add tables - I generally only play one table at a time at the moment because as a noob I think I will learn to be a better player if concentrate on trying to read all the players at one table. This means watching all the action even if I'm not involved, and I've found that even with two tables I can't keep up very well. But I have three-tabled in the past, and if I only have a short time left and quite a few VPPs to get I might consider doing that.

[TonyB73]

tighten up i 6max and call preflop less...

especially in 6max you want to be the aggressor preflop... you want your vpip to be only slightly higher than your PFR
something like 18/16 or 14/12 etc. or a 26/23 or so would be pretty good, but at the low stakes youd rather be more TAG than lag so 19/16 and lower would prob be best...
and ya 6 AF with a 26/16 is prettty aggro...

Thanks vaks.

Thats pretty consistent with what I thought. I play pretty much exclusively 6-max right now, and I think my PFR of 18 for that is not too bad. So if I can keep that the same but get my VPIP down from 26 to about 21, and my AF down from 5 to around 3-4, I think I'll be in good shape.

Practically, I think this means:
- Limping A LOT less in the SB - at the moment my VPIP in the SB is 38, which is higher even than on the button. I tend to complete with anything with potential there - Ax, Kx, even Qx, connectors (suited and unsuited) - which I think is way too loose.
- 3-betting a bit more pre-flop. Right now if there's a raise in front of me I'll only 3-bet with AA-QQ and maybe AK, so there's probably scope to do it more often with a slightly wider range or as a squeeze play.
- On the AF side, being more selective with my c-betting - eg. only heads-up, usually in position.

The other situation I generally limp with is small pocket pairs (22-88) in any position, the idea being to try to get to the flop as cheaply as possible in the hope of hitting a set. That means its cheaper for me to get away when I miss, but on the other hand probably harder to build a pot when I hit. Given I only hit once every 8.5 times or so I thought this was the best approach, but would be interested to hear any alternative views.

[TonyB73]

Man, this game is frustrating. I thought I played quite well tonight, but dropped almost 1.5 buy-ins in less than 150 hands. I felt a bit of tilt kicking in towards the end there so I decided to stop before spewing off any more.

My current downswing is now about 10 buy-ins over about 2,500 hands. I think most of it is variance though rather than bad play, so I'm just hanging in there hoping it'll turn around soon.

Here are some examples of tonight's action.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (6 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

SB ($6.17)
Hero ($5.93)
UTG ($4.72)
MP ($9.35)
CO ($7.76)
Button ($1.40)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K, A.
UTG raises to $0.1, 1 fold, CO calls $0.10, 1 fold, SB calls $0.08, Hero raises to $0.4, UTG folds, CO calls $0.30, SB calls $0.30.

Flop: ($1.30) A, K, 7 (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.7, CO calls $0.70, SB folds.

Turn: ($2.70) 7 (2 players)
Hero bets $2, CO raises to $5.75, Hero ???

No reads on villain - this was about my 7th hand of the night and first time I had played against her. (After 66 hands now she is 76/26/2 ...).

Can anyone lay down AK here? I couldn't - so I called all-in and she turned over A7.

Same villain, about five minutes later:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (5 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

SB ($4.07)
Hero ($5.24)
UTG ($8.09)
MP ($12.91)
Button ($5.39)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q, K.
UTG calls $0.05, MP calls $0.05, Button calls $0.05, SB completes, Hero raises to $0.3, UTG calls $0.25, MP calls $0.25, Button folds, SB calls $0.25.

Flop: ($1.25) 2, K, Q (4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.7, UTG folds, MP raises to $12.61, SB folds, Hero ???

Two pair is a decent hand, but she is clearly representing a flush here, and if she has it I have just four outs - two Ks and two Qs. All-in looks like absolute overkill, so maybe its a bluff , but I really have no reason to disbelieve her as she's been playing very straightforward and "untricky" poker to this point.

By the way, I know what has happened before is irrelevant, but my immediate thought was do I want to risk losing my entire stack for the second time in five minutes?

Then this came up, same villain AGAIN ...

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (6 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

CO ($3.72)
Hero ($4.39)
SB ($7.74)
BB ($2)
UTG ($14.41)
MP ($5.34)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A, K.
UTG raises to $0.3, MP calls $0.30, 1 fold, Hero raises to $0.9, 2 folds, UTG calls $0.60, MP calls $0.60.

Flop: ($2.77) 5, A, 2 (3 players)
UTG bets $0.45, MP folds, Hero raises to $1.35, UTG calls $0.90.

Turn: ($5.47) 5 (2 players)
UTG bets $0.45, Hero raises to $2.14, UTG calls $1.69.

River: ($9.75) 5 (2 players)

Final Pot: $9.75

She shows down AJ, and we split a very big pot thanks to the third 5 on the river.

Finally, a different villain.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (6 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

SB ($4.95)
Hero ($6.88)
UTG ($7.70)
MP ($2.83)
CO ($18.35)
Button ($3.94)

Preflop: Hero is BB with T, T.
1 fold, MP raises to $0.2, 3 folds, Hero calls $0.15.

Flop: ($0.42) 4, 4, 2 (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $0.3, Hero calls $0.30.

Turn: ($1.02) 2 (2 players)
Hero bets $0.4, MP calls $0.40.

River: ($1.82) A (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $0.3, Hero calls $0.30.

Final Pot: $2.42

Villain shows down AJ. Thanks poker gods.

Anyway, thats enough for tonight. I'm really not in the right frame of mind to keep playing now.

[keepitstrict]

I would say just to make bigger bets on the flop/turn and try to get them to lay down their hand. At such low stakes villains rarely ever fold any pair and it's hard to deal with...but that's what happens.

IMO, bigger bets please

[keepitstrict]

Maybe even move to 10NL with that roll, your play looks solid and ive grinded microstakes on stars before...5nl is too much of a joke

[TonyB73]

I would say just to make bigger bets on the flop/turn and try to get them to lay down their hand. At such low stakes villains rarely ever fold any pair and it's hard to deal with...but that's what happens.

IMO, bigger bets please

Thanks mate.

Yeah, I usually bet anywhere from half to full pot on the flop and turn - I think I've been erring towards the lower end of that range lately because I've just read HOH1, and Harrington is strong on varying your bet size, but on average betting only enough to get the job done. So I've been experimenting with it a bit. May be time to step it up a bit higher.

The problem of course is that Harrington is talking about good players, of which there are very few at 5NL on Stars. Most players won't fold a flush draw against a psb on the turn, let alone on the flop. Which is why I seem to get sucked out by flushes on the river so often ...

Speaking of which, this morning I decided to get back on the horse (so to speak) and played a few more hands, to see if things might turn around for me. I played super tight for a while (about 5/5) with a pretty poor run of hole cards, and then folded a couple of single pair-type hands in smallish pots to shoves on scary looking boards.

Then this:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (5 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

SB ($7.14)
Hero ($7.84)
UTG ($3.25)
MP ($4.93)
Button ($10.56)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A, 5.
2 folds, Button calls $0.05, 1 fold, Hero checks.

Flop: ($0.12) Q, A, 3 (2 players)
Hero bets $0.15, Button raises to $0.55, Hero calls $0.40.

Turn: ($1.22) 5 (2 players)
Hero bets $0.95, Button calls $0.95.

River: ($3.12) 8 (2 players)
Hero bets $2, Button raises to $9.01, Hero ???

Villain is 52/10/4 over 60 hands or so.

Did I play this OK to this point? Raise on the flop bothered me a bit - if he had an A it was probably better than mine - but this guy is pretty loose so he's just as likely to have just a Q, an 8 or a draw. No raise pre-flop wipes out AA, QQ or anything very scary like that. Against his whole range I'm not bad here, so I called.

What now with the shove on the river? Pot is $11.40 and it costs me $4.30 to call, which is pretty good odds. Then again this is 5NL so this guy probably has the flush, so whatever I do I have probably just donated a good chunk of $$$ with a decent hand to some muppet who doesn't have a f...ing clue about pot odds and snap calls the turn getting a bit over 2 to 1 on his money on a 4 to 1 shot.

Sorry. Its been a bad couple of weeks.

[AlphaKennyBody]

Don't worry about varying your bet sizes at 5NL. Absolutely no one is paying attention to that...just continue to bet your hands for value and you'll continually get paid off.

The A5 hand, eh, there's some merit in folding after you get re-popped on the flop. He'd probably just call with a Q, and it's very read dependent on whether he's raising w/ the FD. Turn seems fine, but river is such a shitty spot. I don't think anything that's not a flush is pushing this river aside from A8/Q8, because if he had a made hand on the flop he'd raise you again on the turn. I'd probably call given the odds and pray for A3/Q8, but I really don't expect to be ahead here a lot given his line (which is a FD so often).

[TonyB73]

The A5 hand, eh, there's some merit in folding after you get re-popped on the flop. He'd probably just call with a Q, and it's very read dependent on whether he's raising w/ the FD. Turn seems fine, but river is such a shitty spot. I don't think anything that's not a flush is pushing this river aside from A8/Q8, because if he had a made hand on the flop he'd raise you again on the turn. I'd probably call given the odds and pray for A3/Q8, but I really don't expect to be ahead here a lot given his line (which is a FD so often).

From what I'd seen, I think FD was definitely within his raise range on the flop, along with any straight draw, top pair, two pair, set and probably some other stuff as well. I thought very seriously about folding, but I thought I was ahead of enough of his range to call. By the way, I couldn't help calling the river shove, and he showed down T2 of diamonds.

All in all I don't think I played it terribly before the river, probably just should've folded on the end. Not easy to do when its the best hand you've seen for the whole session - but thats what we mean by discipline, no?

[keepitstrict]

yea, varying your bet sizes at 5nl will never work, which explains your suckouts...the river in that A5 hand is an tough fold...all you can do is call and hope he's bluffing imo, you played well up until that point though, tough beat.

[TonyB73]

The carnage continues.

A mere 3,000 hands ago I was getting ready to move up to 10NL. Now my next move is looking increasingly likely to be back down to 2NL. This downswing has now sucked about 13 buy-ins out of my bankroll in a bit less than 3K hands, which works out to a "lose" rate of about -20ptBB/100. I'm now breakeven over my last 10K hands. Thats a lot when I've only played 15K lifetime. Yuk.

I've looked and found a few leaks in my game, including completing way too much in the SB, being a little over-aggressive post-flop, and just playing AKo really badly (still working through that one a bit). But I've come to the conclusion that my whole approach needs to change.

Lately I've been playing single table 6-max, thinking that by watching the other players, taking notes, and being generally observant I'm going to learn a lot more than if I multi-table. Well, thats bullsh!t, and here's why:
(1) Most players at 5NL are not rational, so I'm not actually learning anything useful by watching them
(2) Even if I was learning something useful, its not useful at 5NL because the players aren't rational
(3) These guys all do the same things - raise only with strength, chase draws without sufficient odds, etc
(4) Other than that, my HUD tells me everything I need to know about each individual player

My battered bankroll now needs to grow by a massive $85 to move up to 10NL. If I can turn my current woes around and achieve a reasonable winrate of 5ptBB/100 from now on, that should take me about 17K hands.

So here's my plan. I'm going to forget about watching everyone else too much and 4-table FR all the way up to 10 NL. I'll worry about watching other players once I get up to a level thats high enough for it to matter. I figure the benefits of this are that I stop second guessing myself, I stop attributing thought processes to my opponents that they're just not capable of, and I get plenty of practice playing solid ABC poker. Negatives? None that I can see.

[TonyB73]

yea, varying your bet sizes at 5nl will never work, which explains your suckouts...the river in that A5 hand is an tough fold...all you can do is call and hope he's bluffing imo, you played well up until that point though, tough beat.

Thanks dude. I think I will stick fairly closely to the old 4+1, full, 3/4, 1/2 formula for now!

[TonyB73]

Well its been an up and down weekend.

I've played about 2,500 hands in the last couple of days (a massive PB for me) 4-tabling FR and 6-max. Overall I'm up around $13 at a winrate of 5ptBB/100, which is not too bad.

The variance has been huge though. I ran at 40ptBB/100 for about 600 hands yesterday, and rejoiced in the knowledge that my downswing finally seemed to be over. I got back almost 5 buy-ins with some good cards, solid play and a very conspicuous lack of coolers and bad beats. I probably sucked out on someone else once or twice, but no more than that because I kept getting the chips in good rather than behind.

Then today I gave about half that back over about 1,000 hands. And it was ugly stuff. I copped a couple of bad beats fairly early, and then to be honest I think I probably spewed off a bit more than I should have through some mild tilt. That said, I played 14/10 overall today so I wasn't getting into too many postflop situations that I shouldn't have. I think it was more picking the wrong spots post-flop.

Anyway, here's a couple of the low (and high) lights of the weekend's play.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (6 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

UTG ($12.61)
Hero ($6.39)
CO ($2.62)
Button ($5.55)
SB ($9.58)
BB ($2.13)

Preflop: Hero is MP with 2, 2.
UTG calls $0.05, Hero raises to $0.15, CO calls $0.15, 3 folds, UTG calls $0.10.

Flop: ($0.52) 7, K, 7 (3 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks, CO checks.

Turn: ($0.52) 2 (3 players)
UTG bets $0.15, Hero raises to $0.5, CO folds, UTG raises to $5.8, Hero raises to $6.24, UTG calls $0.44.

River: ($13) T (2 players)

Final Pot: $13

Results in white below:
UTG has Kh 7d (full house, sevens full of kings).
Hero has 2h 2c (full house, twos full of sevens).
Outcome: UTG wins $13.

This next one just sucks.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (8 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

CO ($11.93)
Button ($14.35)
SB ($9.80)
Hero ($3.94)
UTG ($8.20)
UTG+1 ($4.73)
MP1 ($6.70)
MP2 ($10.12)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 6, 6.
2 folds, MP1 raises to $0.2, MP2 raises to $0.55, 3 folds, Hero calls $0.50, MP1 calls $0.35.

Flop: ($1.67) Q, 6, 2 (3 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets $0.95, MP2 raises to $1.9, Hero raises to $3.39, MP1 folds, MP2 calls $1.49.

Turn: ($9.40) J (2 players)

River: ($9.40) K (2 players)

Final Pot: $9.40

Results in white below:
Hero has 6d 6h (three of a kind, sixes).
MP2 has Kd Ks (three of a kind, kings).
Outcome: MP2 wins $9.40.

As does this - seriously I should just fold A5 every time even when in the BB in an unraised pot:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (6 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Button ($2.25)
Hero ($5.88)
BB ($5)
UTG ($7.30)
MP ($11.01)
CO ($6.50)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A, 5.
1 fold, MP calls $0.05, CO calls $0.05, 1 fold, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($0.20) 4, 5, 5 (4 players)
Hero bets $0.2, BB folds, MP folds, CO calls $0.20.

Turn: ($0.60) Q (2 players)
Hero bets $0.55, CO calls $0.55.

River: ($1.70) 2 (2 players)
Hero bets $1.6, CO raises to $3.2, Hero calls $1.60.

Final Pot: $8.10

Results in white below:
Hero has Ad 5h (three of a kind, fives).
CO has 3s 6d (straight, six high).
Outcome: CO wins $8.10.

This one I get a little bit of my own back:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (6 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

MP ($15.14)
CO ($5.47)
Hero ($5.50)
SB ($5.48)
BB ($2.84)
UTG ($4.53)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J, Q.
UTG calls $0.05, 2 folds, Hero raises to $0.25, 2 folds, UTG calls $0.20.

Flop: ($0.57) 5, Q, 9 (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $0.45, UTG calls $0.45.

Turn: ($1.47) T (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks.

River: ($1.47) 8 (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $1.25, UTG calls $1.25.

Final Pot: $3.97

Results in white below:
UTG has 9h 9c (three of a kind, nines).
Hero has Js Qh (straight, queen high).
Outcome: Hero wins $3.97.

I don't think that last one was as bad as the ones I copped above because I didn't get too much in when behind, and villain played it badly and paid the price.

So I've racked up some serious volume, and done well enough over the weekend to keep going with this. At this rate I'm going to aim for 10K hands for June, which would be a huge month for me. Hoepfully by then I'll be back challenging for the next step up again.

I've also found that I can 4-table 6-max normal speed pretty comfortably, so I'm going to keep doing that for a while and hopefully grind my way back up towards that 10NL roll!

[AlphaKennyBody]

All look okay, nhs. Well A5o you can probably let go, but everything else about that hand is fine. And as stated in the bad beat thread, fold 66 PF.

Also, post some brag hands in here every now and then! (like that QJ hand...lol slowrollers)

[bjsaust]

Stop focusing on the coolers and bad beats. Those happen and theres not much you can do. Find the hands where you have choices to make.

[TonyB73]

Sorry. I guess on a 13BI downswing its hard not to get negative and focus on the bad stuff. But you're right - I should be using this for advice and entertainment, not whingeing. So no more of those.

To tonight. An OK night. Finished down about $1 overall. This hand came just before I finished:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (5 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

UTG ($10.89)
Hero ($12.24)
Button ($9.21)
SB ($3.71)
BB ($10.03)

Preflop: Hero is MP with K, K.
UTG raises to $0.2, Hero raises to $0.8, Button calls $0.80, SB calls $0.78, 1 fold, UTG folds.

Flop: ($2.65) A, 8, 3 (3 players)
SB checks, Hero ???

Normally with three-way action with KK I'd be leading out with a sizeable c-bet, but with an A-high monotone flop I'm in trouble against any A or any two diamonds, and there's a very good chance at least one of these guys has at least an A. Even any diamond is probably going to call me with a 35% chance of hitting. So what's the line here? Do I check/fold, check and call a small bet, or lead out?

And to get right away from the coolers and bad beats, here's another one from the weekend that I enjoyed:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (5 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

SB ($4.97)
BB ($12.48)
UTG ($9.89)
MP ($9.97)
Hero ($5.81)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A, J.
UTG raises to $0.15, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.15, 2 folds.

Flop: ($0.37) A, K, 3 (2 players)
UTG bets $0.3, Hero calls $0.30.

This looked to me like a standard c-bet, but villain is 11/5 over 60-odd hands, so with a raise UTG preflop I'm thinking AK, AQ, KK and even AA are a decent chunk of his range. But he also has AF=6 which says he will c-bet whether he hit the flop or not, and I have top pair, so I decide to call. But I'm nervous about it.

Turn: ($0.97) A (2 players)
UTG bets $0.7, Hero calls $0.70.

OK, so now I'm not worried about KK any more, and the chances of him having an A have probably reduced as well given there is only one I can't see. Also, his bet of about 3/4 pot could be a second barrel as I just called the first. I contemplated re-raising here but in the end decided to just call because I was still a bit worried about AK/AQ.

River: ($2.37) A (2 players)
UTG bets $1.5, Hero raises to $3.8, UTG calls $2.30.

Final Pot: $9.97

Double-take - is that what I think it is? First time I've ever had (or even seen I think) quad A's. Well I guess he doesn't have AK or AQ then. And he's betting into me again!

I'm annoyed with myself here actually - I should've just shoved over the top. But with action on another table at the same time distracting me, and wanting badly to make sure I was at least called, I only re-raised about 2.5x. He called the re-raise quickly so I'm sure he would've called the shove, especially as it would not have been less than $1 more. Noobie mistake that probably cost me about 90c.

[kettleofish]

If it were me, i'd still be worried about KK on the turn. Boat >>>>> Trips. Noice river tho!

That KK hand sucks, but i think c/f is the only sensible line. With button still to act and SB having only slightly more than a PSB left, any reasonably sized c-bet from u is likely to put u in some shiiiiity spots unless they both fold. U had the wrong hand really, u should've taken the Kd instead of the Kh

[badgers]

KK hand is an easy c/f this is about the worst flop possible for KK. The fact that it's 3way makes it worse, time to give up/ pray for a free showdown.

hand two villain is 11/5? At 6max? That's so ridiculously tight I'd probs fold pre. I think you should definitely be shoving this river.

[TonyB73]

If it were me, i'd still be worried about KK on the turn. Boat >>>>> Trips. Noice river tho!

This is a tremendously excellent point. And a very basic one too. Thats a reminder to make sure I'm reading boards properly ...

Absolutely agree that c/f is the best approach to the second hand. So I checked, the button checked behind me. Turn came Qd, SB bet pot, I threw my cards away so fast the dealer got paper cuts trying to catch them, and SB took it down with AsJd.

[TonyB73]

I decided not to play tonight, and instead spend some time looking through my PT3 stats to see what leaks I can find. This is the first time I have used PT3 to do something like this, and I apologise up front for three things:
1) I don't really know how to best leverage PT3, so some of the combinations and analyses I've come up with may not be the best ones - please feel free to point these out!
2) I haven't worked out how to paste my PT3 stats into a post, so I have manually copied all of these across, and it might be hard to read
3) Its a bit long!

I posted some basic stats at the beginning of this thread, but the idea here is to post a whole lot more and then make some comments as to what I think they mean. It would be great if anyone (especially those with far more experience than I) has any thoughts on how I can improve my game and/or what other checks I can do to identify the leaks.

Basic Stats

VPIP: 21.84
PFR: 14.85
AF: 5.72
W$WSF: 44.46
WTSD: 17.90
W$SD: 45.94
AFq: 56.91
3Bet: 3.56
Fold 3B: 62.20
A2S: 41.52
FoldBB2S: 88.20
FoldSB2S: 88.89

At 6max I'm 22/15/5, while at FR I'm more like 20/14/6. I'm planning to focus on 6max and I'd like to play something like 20/17/3, which means calling a little less, raising a little more and being a bit more circumspect post-flop. I also think my W$SD is too low - perhaps the changes just mentioned plus avoiding spewy calls when I know I'm beat will improve that number.

Specific Pocket Hands

Pocket Pairs: 93/51, win 56% for +160ptBB/100, played same in every position, 22, 33, 66 and TT losers
Suited Connectors: 45/31; win 29.5% for +38ptBB/100, played twice as often in LP as in EP, with AKs biggest loser
Unsuited Connectors: 28/21; win 21% for breakeven, played way too much in EP, with AKo biggest loser
Any Ace: 51/40; win 37% for +30ptBB/100, with AK biggest loser

The VPIP/PFR stats for connectors and aces here feel very high, but are skewed heavily towards AK/KQ/QJ and AK/AQ/AJ, and BTN/CO play where I am stealing. Interestingly, if I take AKo out I am a solid winner with unsuited connectors too. In fact, my two worst hands by a LONG way are AKo and 66, which is not exactly an intuitive outcome.

AKo: -304ptBB/100; Win% 68.45; VPIP 97.6; PFR 92.3; 3Bet 48.33; W$WSF 58.54; WTSD 22.76; W$SD 25.00; LWPC 0; RFI 100
66: -267ptBB/100; Win% 32.86; VPIP 90; PFR 30; W$WSF 28.33; WTSD 16.67; W$SD 30.00; LWPC 47.37; RFI 57.14

With AK I'm winning most of the time but losing badly overall, which suggests that I'm winning small pots and losing big ones. My W$SD absolutely sucks. I started a thread on this in the Beginner's Circle a while ago and have tried to implement some of what I learned there, but I don't seem to have improved much since. I'm certain its all bad post-flop play - I think I still cbet too much, especially OOP and against more than one villain, and have a lot of trouble laying it down ever. I desperately have to work out how to play it though - it should be a big winner not a big loser. Worth noting here too that my lifetime winrate is about 8.5ptBB/100, but without AK it would be more like 12ptBB/100!

With 66 I checked a few HHs, and I'm also winning small pots and losing big ones. I seem to have run into a lot of higher sets and river flushes in the big pots, which I can't do much about. Even so, I think I could raise more pre-flop to increase the likelihood of a sizeable pot when I do hit.

Action: slow down with AK postflop as described above, raise more with 66 (and other low-mid pocket pairs) preflop, don't play unsuited connectors in EP

Positions

Btn: 35.5/29.0, winrate 43ptBB/100
1: 23.2/18.8, winrate 12ptBB/100
2: 17.2/13.6, winrate 3ptBB/100
3: 13.8/10.9, winrate 35ptBB/100
4: 13.9/10.3, winrate -6ptBB/100 (losing)
5: 13.6/10.6, winrate 19ptBB/100
6: 13.1/10.9, winrate -34ptBB/100 (losing)
BB: 10.9/7.2, winrate -20ptBB/100 (losing)
SB: 35.1/12.6, winrate -3ptBB/100 (losing)

I think I'm fairly positionally aware, but this suggests that is only the case insofar as I distinguish between BTN/CO and the rest. I am a complete steal-monkey in those two positions, which may account for a large part of the higher VPIP/PFR. The other things that stand out are that I clearly complete WAAAY too much in the SB, and I am also losing in EP generally.

Action: tighten up a bit in MP (4, 5) and drastically in EP (6, SB)

Flop Hands

Flush Draws: +55ptBB/100; AF 2.51; WTSD 30.5; W$SD 50.9
OESDs: +68ptBB/100; AF 1.97; WTSD 36.7; W$SD 47.2
Gutshot Draws: -34ptBB/100; AF 3.3; WTSD 18.6; W$SD 37.1
Overpairs: +361ptBB/100; AF 7.4; WTSD 37.8; W$SD 61.1
Overcards: -91ptBB/100; AF 4.9; WTSD 15.8; W$SD 37.3
Top pair: +63ptBB/100; AF 5.6;WTSD 25.0; W$SD 53.4

Looks like I play gutshot draws and overcards too aggressively. I don't get to showdown much with them either - thinking about my play, my guess is that I go hard on the flop and either take it down there, or get action and end up folding it later when I miss and the pot is big. If thats the case, that approach is clearly unprofitable for me, so I need to change it. I think chasing them far less often might be a better approach.

Action: slow down with gutshot draws and overcards postflop

That will do me for now I think - its late here and I need to get some sleep, and there's a fair bit to work on there in my next few sessions. Nevertheless, if anyone has the time to look at this, I would be really grateful for any comments!

[TonyB73]

Reached 20K lifetime hands today!

I'm up a bit over $70 for a winrate of 7.46ptBB/100, which I guess is not too bad for my first 20K.

Still PLENTY to learn though ... !

Will update with a brief review of the last week's play in the next couple of days.

[TonyB73]

Its been about 10 days since I last updated. In that time I've played 3,283 hands @ 3.64ptBB/100. Not fantastic, but certainly going in the right direction.

My stats are 17.5/15.8/6.6, which I think is solid although I'm still too aggressive post-flop which I think is the main reason my winrate is not higher.

I thought it might be worth showing a couple of hands that I had some trouble with, so here goes.

HAND 1

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (5 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

MP ($2.13)
Hero ($6.09)
SB ($2.30)
BB ($5.89)
UTG ($7.13)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K, A.
UTG calls $0.05, MP calls $0.05, Hero raises to $0.3, 2 folds, UTG calls $0.25, MP calls $0.25.

Flop: ($0.97) 4, 8, 9 (3 players)
UTG bets $0.2, MP folds, Hero ???

I think this hand is fairly symptomatic of my problems with AK, because I just don't know what to do with it in spots like this. Villain is a fairly typical 53/0/1 over about 100 hands, and given he called my raise pre and then donked into me, I feel as though I have to give him credit for some sort of hand (though not necessarily a monster). I think its most likely top pair or overpair, and a set is also possible although I think this guy would usually check a hand like that when OOP to the raiser. He's given me 6-to-1 pot odds, but I don't have many outs - I think any A or K will often win, and other than that a very unlikely backdoor flush is about it.

It is such a small bet, my first instinct is to raise up to about pot as a semi-bluff, but this guy is probably too much of a station to fold it so thats probably totally spewy, no?

HAND 2

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (5 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

BB ($3.52)
UTG ($13.15)
MP ($3)
Hero ($5.39)
SB ($5.98)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 3, 3. MP posts a blind of $0.05.
1 fold, MP (poster) checks, Hero raises to $0.2, 2 folds, MP calls $0.15.

Flop: ($0.47) A, 5, 6 (2 players)
MP checks, Hero bets $0.4, MP calls $0.40.

Turn: ($1.27) 3 (2 players)
MP checks, Hero bets $1.1, MP raises to $2.4, Hero ???

Villain has just sat down, and I've never seen him/her before.

Is this a standard call? I've made my set on the turn, but there's also a three-flush on the board and unknown villain has shoved. Given usual 5NL action it looks an awful lot like a flush, but I'm having a lot of trouble laying it down.

HAND 3

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (6 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

MP ($9.03)
CO ($5)
Button ($8.94)
SB ($10.93)
BB ($9.48)
Hero ($4.68)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K, K.
Hero raises to $0.2, MP raises to $0.6, 4 folds, Hero raises to $1.6, MP calls $1.

Flop: ($3.27) J, Q, A (2 players)
Hero ???

Villain is 97/42/3 and has a 3-bet % of almost 20 over 40 odd hands, so I have to put him on a fairly wide range even with that pre-flop action. That range definitely includes a whole chunk of Ax, QQ, JJ, QJ and KT, but I think it includes a whole lot of other stuff too like most pocket pairs, KQ, KJ, QT, JT. And as I have only about $3 behind any c-bet or check/call will pretty much commit me, so my decision here is for the rest of my stack. But it just feels really weak-tight to check/fold here.


Well thats it for now. Thanks in advance for any thoughts on the hands!

[TonyB73]

From the deafening din of responses to my last two posts, I'm guessing no-one is really bothering to read this anymore! Thats OK - I wasn't exactly Mr Excitement with my first few posts complaining about coolers and downswings. But I'm going to keep writing even if no-one is reading because it helps me think about the game more and organise my thoughts.

In the last week, I've played 3,108 hands of 5NL 6-max at a winrate of 5.94ptBB/100. I'm happy with that - better than last week, and the week before that, and the one before that. Overall my 5NL winrate is a touch under 3ptBB/100, so I'd like to get it a bit higher before I move up.

Stats for the week were 15.9/13.9/7.8 - clearly I've tightened up and limp less, but I'm still way too aggressive postflop. Still working on that one, trying to stop myself taking shots at pots when I have air and I'm only hoping rather than expecting that I can take it down right there. Had a session this morning with an AF of around 3, so thats a definite improvement!

Played a couple of 9-man SnGs tonight just for a change-up, and also because I'll be playing a live one in about an hour so I thought I'd get some online practice in first. I pretty much always play ring so playing short-handed with massive blinds is a bit strange to me. Did OK - won one and crashed out of the money in other three. One of the losses was KK v AA (on the very first hand!), which is just bad luck I think. In the others I got it all in with AA v 75 and lost to the straight, and then with Q9 v K9 and his hand held up. Not all bad though - I got very lucky in the tourney I won - the final hand I caught a 3-outer on the river to win, and losing that hand would have left me with a $20 stack and a $400 blind!

Anyway, time to leave this online stuff behind for a night and try some live poker! I have to remember not to fist-pump or yell "YEEESSS" if I get dealt aces ...

[kettleofish]

Whoops, was gonna reply to this last week, must've gotten sidetracked. Anyhoo's...

1) He NEVER has a hand here, ever ever ever ever ever. I would raise this 100% of the time, even with total air. There are 2 ways that passive donks play big hands on the flop, he'll either donk bet big, or he'll check raise u. That pussy-arse lead shit is how they attempt to "bluff". I'm at work at the mo, but later i'll post a few examples of what i mean. As it is u probs have the best hand here, so def raise.

2) Is marginal, but i'd call. Gettin ~3.5:1, if there's any chance he's doing this with AdXs type hands, two pair etc. i'm not folding.

3) 4-bet AI preflop. With stats like he's got you'll get a call from worse hands a lot IMO. U don't have to worry about c/f an Ahigh flop if the moneys already in!

[TonyB73]

Thanks for the response Kettle.

Exciting news - I've finally racked up the 500 FPPs I needed to clear the Stars deposit bonus!! It took me 5 months and a bit over 25K hands at 2NL, 5NL and 10NL, but I made it. Despite what AlphaKennyBody said above, when the Stars' 2x week started this week and with only a month left to clear the bonus, I decided to take a few shots at 10NL ... with only 15 buy-ins. Very bad BR management I know, but it worked, and the $50 has pushed my roll up over $200 and properly rolled me for 10NL.

Overall, in the 8 days since I last posted I've logged 2,823 hands at 5NL and 10NL (all 6-max), at a winrate of 4.51ptBB/100. I'm playing 18.1/14.8/3.9, which I'm pretty happy with. Variance has been all over the place, I think partly because I've been playing at the higher stakes and have managed to strike some maniacs and get involved in some very, very big pots.

I also feel as though my play is improving. I'm still spewing post-flop, but less than before. My discipline is improving (eg. not overestimating my implied odds as much), my AF is down to a much more reasonable level, and I'm in the green with AKo over the past few days. I think my biggest weakness right now is hand reading - I just don't do it enough - so I'm going to try to play a few sessions of 1-2 tables and really focus on putting every player on a range post flop, whether I'm still involved in the hand or not.

I'll be on vacation for the next week with no access to the internet, so I won't be playing much at all. Will try to play as many hands as I can over the next 36 hours or so to rack up the FPPs, but after that it will be break time.

Cheers!

[TonyB73]

Man, tough night tonight. Without turning this into a bad beat thread, I dropped almost 4 buy-ins with the following five hands:
(1) 3rd nut flush lost to nut flush
(2) Nut flush lost to full house (gotta watch those paired boards ...)
(3) KK all in pre-flop lost to AJo (hit the A)
(4) KK all in on the turn as an overpair lost to JTs (hit trip 10s on the river)
(5) Missed 15-out draw in a big pot

The first two (the flushes) were in my first seven hands at one table, and the other three were all against the same complete donk on another table. Still finished down only just over two buy-ins overall, so the other 820 hands I played weren't too bad. Overall I think my play was solid (for me) despite the results, and I'm happy that I refused to tilt, especially after finding myself down almost two buy-ins after less than 10 minutes.

Anyway, time to go to bed now. Need to get up early tomorrow my time to take advantage of the last few hours of Stars 2X ... !!