Interesting 3-bet pot scenario that happens all the time.

[Renton]

2/4 100bb

You are a 24/20 tag who 3-bets a lot in and out of position.
Villain is a tag who is aware of this and calls 3-bets somewhat lightly. You are unaware of his postfop tendencies.

Folds to villain otb who opens for 12. You 3-bet to 44 from the BB, he calls. Flop:

:Kd:

Series of questions:

1. What is the weakest hand you'll bet and not fold to any action?

2. With JJ, is checking optimal?

3. Assuming you bet with JJ with some frequency, should you bet/fold or shove if he raises your cbet 2.5x?

4. What percent of your air do you check fold with the intention of perhaps going for a delayed cb?

5. What is the strongest hand, if any that you'll c/f for showdown value (A4 comes to mind)?

[Marshall28]

in this situation im not thinking about my hands in terms of weakest i would do x with and strongest i would do x with, im really thinking more about how i would play my bluffs, how i would play my strong hands, how i would play my draws, and how i would play my marginal made hands.

w/out any info on how someone plays postflop i think you basically have to bet your entire range on this flop. you need that info in order to make better decisions in future hands...

for the purpose of attempting to gain this info im always betting here the first time ... if i start to gain info its going to drastically change how i end up playing vs that particular opponent.

JJ would basically be turned into a bluff, i wouldnt ever want to check because what's my intention? to check/call? then what if he fires the turn? check/fold? .. i just basically gave myself no way to win the pot other than hoping that he doesnt play aggressively. i expect him to fold basically all of his range except Kx, QQ, JJ, TT, 77, 44, and 56 on this board most of the time. if my JJ gets raised im basically not putting anymore money in the pot and going to assume that hes raising me fairly liberally, and will be more apt to get it in lighter against him next time. reason i would make this assumption is that he can't .. errr .. at least shouldn't have AK, and you def can have AK, so if hes raising for value its going to be w/ a weaker K like KQ/KJ possibly KT but not as likely, or 56, or obv a set, but hes not going to have a set often enough, which is why im going to run w/ my assumption that hes raising light. if hes not raising light and he does have a set, yeah it might cost me a little bit next time around but u just have to go w/ the assumptions that are most probable. if hes raising here, it's most probable that hes doing it w/ a marginal hand, in which case, in the future on this board, i'd be looking to get it in w/ a wider range.

i would never attempt a delayed c-bet oop, especially when i expect my opponent to fold SSOSOSO often, it also makes it more difficult to extract value the times u do have a king or something strong here, of course there are always counter adjustments you can make depending on your own style/preferences, this is just mine.

[Renton]

Marshall i'm not gonna go super deep into it because i'd like more discussion to run its course, but it sounds like you are both drastically overestimating the amount they fold to a cbet (most people are calling at least once street with a pair or a decent ace high here in my experience), and are also stacking off with an incredibly narrow range compared with how often you are betting the flop.

/run on sentence

[Marshall28]

i dunno, you could be right. i just kinda think that if theres no history and he doesnt think youre 3betting light then theres basically no reason to assume he plays back light. maybe u r assuming more than i am?

[EzDuzIt]

1. KQ (edited after thinking about it)
2. yeah
3. i would shove but i dont think i would bet flop without knowing villain good enough to know what i want to do vs a raise.
4. 0%
5. not really sure 66 maybe

[zook]

I like Marshall. That's what I said on aim, only longer.

[Renton]

[?] interesting

[|~|ypermegachi]

i suck, but this is what i'd do

1) AK, 56
2) with JJ, i think c/c is optimal
3) i bet bet/fold JJ
4) dunno
5) A7

[freechus9]

1. i guess AK.
3. i would shove but i dont think i would bet flop without knowing villain good enough to know what i want to do vs a raise.

Whaa? Why on earth would you shove if raised with JJ? You get called by better and fold worse, cept QQ.

[Renton]

freech kinda irrelevant whether he calls with owrse when the pots already massive

[IowaSkinsFan]

1. KJ, or ofc 65 if that counts.
2. I'd probably check the flop here. The only draw he is possibly going to have is 65 and I think we can safely fold to two bets.
3. soul read L.D.O.
4. 0% given absolutely no history.
5. 66

[nutsinho]

1. KQ. I will bet/call this flop with a lot of marginal hands vs aggro players because obviously i expect them to bluff a lot. After raising here they generally do not think they have room to continue on their bluff so I bet/call hands such as 99-QQ and Kx and c/f two streets afterward.
2. This is all about reads and gameflow. It can be clear cut one way or the other depending on the two.
3. Call. On this board the only semibluff they might ship with later in the hand is 56s or something they pick up on the turn. I think this is largely a different situation from a flop with a flush draw, where i would be inclined to ship regularly vs a lot of opponents.
4. I think this is a good line vs thinking opponents, so vs tighter players who will generally have some pair here, I would do this quite a bit, maybe 60-70%, with NPND.
5. I agree with 66. I bet most 7s here because they have a decent chance at improving whereas 66 and possibly 88 arent losing as much by c/fing vs tough tighties.