Yet another 5NL hand

[oskar]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, 0.00 BB (7 handed) - Party-Poker Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP2 (16.20)
CO (4.11)
Hero (Button) (7.38)
SB (4.47)
BB (2.52)
UTG (4.60)
MP1 (5.00)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J A
CO calls 0.04, BB calls 0.04, 1 fold, Hero raises to 0.20, MP2 calls 0.18, 1 fold, CO calls 0.16, 1 fold

Flop: (0.68) 7 A 3 (4 players)
MP2 checks, CO checks, Hero bets 0.52, MP2 calls 0.52, CO calls 0.52

Turn: (2.24) K (4 players)
MP2 bets 0.48, CO calls 0.48, Hero calls 0.48

River: (3.68) 10 (4 players)
MP2 checks, CO checks, Hero bets 2.00, MP2 calls 2.00, 1 fold

Total pot: 7.68

I will not show you the results, because your head would explode, but what's your line here? Two calls on the flop... I'm really confused with the bet on the turn... Is he block betting? What is he block betting? When both checked on the river I was convinced I had the best hand and thought half the pot would get a call from a weaker ace, or maybe QQ or something.
What would you do on the turn? can you find a raise? To be honest, I would probably stack off here if one of them raised all-in, so I might as well raise it myself, right?

[wellrounded08]

I read your whole post, but all I can think about are the results... What would make my head explode? lol.

Anyways... I dunno, two limp/calls is interesting. I would have to think at least one PP. Maybe a weak player caught trips on the flop? I'm just a fishy, but yeah, I'd have to lay right into that weird bet on the turn, fold to a 3bet.

Your results comment makes me think one villain had QJ or some shit like that.

[oskar]

Well if I raised like 2,5 on the turn - which is about what I would raise in this spot, then I can't fold to a shove... I'm getting like 3:1 on a call.

[wellrounded08]

Yeah...True, so it would be a certain stack off.
Couple of questions from a fishy for you and anyone else experiened.
Couldn't you bet smaller on such a dry flop? Or was this the size of all your c-bets?
Also, would it be wise to check the river? I mean, I think your only getting calls from hands that beat you at this point.

[oskar]

I could even bet more.
The bet size should always be related to the pot size. I vary it mostly due to flop texture - I bet more on draw-heavy boards... and I might make overbets so I can shove either the turn or the river.

In a raised pot it is unlikely that you're not getting paid off on TJK, 9JQ kind of boards - they are very hard to miss, so I will even overbet the pot there with TPTK, overpair type of hands.

You will see in some of the hands that I post that I tend to get called a lot - that is because I specifically look for tables with a lot of action, and I also raise / c-bet A LOT of hands. Two picture cards are a raise for me in any position.
In this situation if the flop had come 58Q - I would make the exact same bet... the other players notice that after a while and go after me.

I also raise so much, because I want to build a big pot, and I'm positive that I have the best hand here something like 80% of the time. If someone has AK, AQ, set... auto-reload is activated... I'm ready to move on.

On the river I don't think a hand that beats me would check it to me, that's why I bet.

[oskar]

Because I just played this hand while posting
This is just the same example of a marginal c-bet when I'm pretty sure I have the best hand and I think second pair, JJ... might pay me off.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, 0.00 BB (10 handed) - Party-Poker Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (MP2) (20.23)
MP3 (8.43)
CO (6.63)
Button (5.29)
SB (4.43)
BB (0.29)
UTG (2.19)
UTG+1 (4.80)
UTG+2 (5.00)
MP1 (5.00)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K K
BB calls 0.04, 1 fold, SB calls 0.04, Hero raises to 0.24, 3 folds, CO calls 0.20, SB calls 0.25, Hero calls 0.05, CO calls 0.05

Flop: (0.93) 10 9 A (6 players)
CO checks, SB checks, Hero checks

Turn: (0.93) Q (6 players)
CO checks, SB checks, Hero checks

River: (0.93) 9 (6 players)
CO checks, SB checks, Hero bets 0.50, 2 folds

Total pot: 0.93

[BankItDrew]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, 0.00 BB (7 handed)

sweet
free game

In all seriousness...

Preflop: I'm very strict with the 4xbb + 1 rule when I have position. So, in this situation, I'm making it $0.24.

Flop: No need to bet so big and pot fuck commit yourself to this hand. You're multi-way and there are no draws to be worried about. make it closer to half pot.

Turn: good.

River: I'm checking this behind. The last thing we want is a checkraise when all we have is top pair. Two other players put $$ in the pot on the flop and turn, this should show more strength that you might anticipate.

[wellrounded08]

Flop: No need to bet so big and pot fuck commit yourself to this hand. You're multi-way and there are no draws to be worried about. make it closer to half pot.

Turn: good.

River: I'm checking this behind. The last thing we want is a checkraise when all we have is top pair. Two other players put $$ in the pot on the flop and turn, this should show more strength that you might anticipate.

That's what I thought! lol. Just mess'n oscar.

[oskar]

Flop: No need to bet so big and pot fuck commit yourself to this hand. You're multi-way and there are no draws to be worried about. make it closer to half pot.

really?
I think I'm easily getting called here with weaker aces, and quite frankly there's not much chance I'm laying this down no matter what happens - at 5NL that is. I've won countless 500bb pots where the villain had tpnk or even second pair. If I don't have a good read I would stack off here. Might be something to reconsidder though.

River: I'm checking this behind. The last thing we want is a checkraise when all we have is top pair. Two other players put $$ in the pot on the flop and turn, this should show more strength that you might anticipate.

That's kind of the question - how often does someone check AQ, 2 pair, or a set here? - as opposed to paying me off with Ax

[wellrounded08]

I think MP2 might have two pair actually, but he seems afraid of a set, or a stronger two pair.

[oskar]

Let me end your agony, he had T7.

[wellrounded08]

THANK YOU! lol Hmm.... a weak two pair. Interesting. No, that is quite donkish. Name please? lol j/k... Hopefully you continued and took that guys stack.

[oskar]

Looks like the lessons are coming along... just played this... thought it was kind of similar, and bet half the pot...
again... If someone reshoves... with exception of MP3, he's definitely not shoving TT here - but everyone else, I would have to call. He's also the reason why I didn't just push it preflop.
I was trying to do the bet size +1 per caller thing, but the slider on party isn't very accurate, I usually tip it a couple of times, and try to get it somewhere in the area. Did I mention I play 3 speed tables and raise about 30% of the hands I get dealt?



Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, 0.00 BB (10 handed) - Party-Poker Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (UTG+1) (14.15)
UTG+2 (7.02)
MP1 (6.45)
MP2 (5.33)
MP3 (11.81)
CO (5.08)
Button (4.88)
SB (5.37)
BB (5.27)
UTG (2.00)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with J J
MP3 calls 0.04, 1 fold, SB calls 0.04, Hero raises to 0.20, BB calls 0.20, 3 folds, CO raises to 0.56, MP3 calls 0.56, 1 fold, Hero calls 0.40, BB calls 0.40

Flop: (2.46) 6 3 4 (5 players)
CO checks, MP3 checks, Hero bets 1.00, BB calls 1.00, 2 folds

Turn: (4.46) 2 (3 players)
Hero bets 2.00, BB calls 2.00

River: (8.46) 6 (3 players)
Hero bets 2.00

Total pot: 8.46

[Chopper]

sorry, remarks polluted because i saw the results. but, anyway...

at these stakes, players stack off VERY light, as you see here. but, that doesnt give you license to take TPGK over the line, either.

what was villain like? was he bluffy? passive? extremely loose? this is a time to start working on your player reads. just the general ones help a great deal. dont get too specific because they dont likely know what or why they do what they do.

if i have a big TP, K or A, i tend to size my bets to get it in. but, i need a strong kicker or a dry board. here, in hand one, you have that, but when your villain donks into you on the turn, i think you back off against an unknown. that is a strange action. he could be looking for you to push over, or he could just be too stupid to c/r two pair, or he could just be stupid. until you have a read, you dont know, and, imo, need to assume its stronger than TPGK.

but, i also think that flop bet, here, is too big. slightly more than half pot is good. that board is so dry and you raised it up pre...players are looking for you to have an A here, imo.

and, once checked to on the river, i think i fire, too. what donks a turn and c/r's a river? i dont see it coming. so, i need value. i probably bet less, about $1.50, but thats a bit nit-picky.

in hand two, if i dont test that flop, i certainly feel good on the turn. just because the A is flopped, doesnt mean it hit them. i prefer to fire this flop because of the coordination of the board. and, if i do, i likely get a free turn card, or fire barrel two and get a free showdown. either way, its fairly cheap here because i'm not firing three streets.

[wellrounded08]

and, once checked to on the river, i think i fire, too. what donks a turn and c/r's a river? i dont see it coming. so, i need value. i probably bet less, about $1.50, but thats a bit nit-picky.

I still don't see it. Not at these levels. I mean, slowplaying passive donks are so thick at these stakes, just waiting to c/raise. Why give'm the chance. I just think your getting called by more hands that beat you than hands you beat here. And even if I did, It would have to be less like you said, but I'm insta-folding to a reraise. I dunno, I'm just a fishy who wants a solid reason to bet here.

[oskar]

In the KK hand I waited for someone to bet because we had one player AI preflop, and many players retain kind of a tournament mentality and think someone would only bet with a really strong hand here.

wellrounded, you are right about the slowplay donks. "checks nuts oop on the river" is one of my most common player notes. But without that read, I like to value-bet in that spot.

[wellrounded08]

In the KK hand I waited for someone to bet because we had one player AI preflop, and many players retain kind of a tournament mentality and think someone would only bet with a really strong hand here.

wellrounded, you are right about the slowplay donks. "checks nuts oop on the river" is one of my most common player notes. But without that read, I like to value-bet in that spot.

I got you. Innocent until proven guilty. I can see that. in a case like this, with some check/calling going on, I'm probably going the other way, assume they will unless I have a note saying otherwise. Ok, I'll shut up about it. lol.

[Chopper]

In the KK hand I waited for someone to bet because we had one player AI preflop, and many players retain kind of a tournament mentality and think someone would only bet with a really strong hand here.

wellrounded, you are right about the slowplay donks. "checks nuts oop on the river" is one of my most common player notes. But without that read, I like to value-bet in that spot.

part one...all the more reason you want to bet that flop. you dont mind taking it down immediately. play your FE and dont let weak backdoor draws improve. dont felt your hand, but dont give free cards.

part two...sure, slowplay donks are all over down there (once you realize they only cost themselves money by missing opportunity after opportunity, you dont worry so much about them). but, to punish them, you dont fear them. you just dont call their raises. but, you MUST valuebet them. the same players are stupid enough to call you with A2, the K, or even after spiking a T on that river. down here you are always going for value, rarely (if ever) bluffing, and taking big raises VERY seriously, unless otherwise noted.

[wellrounded08]

Look Chopper, I hate to disagree really. I hate is cuz your probably going to PWN me in a minute. But I see no reason to punish the few straight up bluffers by calling their raises and v-beting hands were you are easily beat. You punish them by forcing them to call with no odds, Value betting is great with these 2 out chasers, but I'm rarely following a c/c or c/r with another value bet. The fact is if villain check/calls flop, then opens the turn, I'm rarely going to give them the chance to c/raise against me on the river(the turn is different). I'm more than happy to collect on their silly missed draw bluffs with a check/call however.

The fact is, Unless I've noted that villain is a straight up call station, I'm not betting this particular river.

[Chopper]

dont hate to disagree. this is how we learn...myself included. i am far from the best player here. i am only stating my opinion of what i do down here. i can beat these games, but others beat it far worse, and may very well agree with you and put me in my place. so, dont worry about disagreeing with me...ever. lol.

i think i see a contradiction in your statement, though. the "punish the bluffers..." sentence confuses me a little. i dont call ALL their raises. i do so with good hands, and let them spew into me. but, if the board is coordinated at all, i play my hand fast. bluffers HATE aggression, too. but, they do wake up with hands sometimes as well. you just have to see what they are willing to stack off with, and see how far they take their bluffs. again, it comes back to "reading players." but, we dont have a read here, so thats kind of moot.

and, we only valuebet marginal hands against passive players. not against players likely to raise us with worse. we look for the stations and never miss a bet against them....but fold to THEIR raises.

thats where i see a contradiction. it seems you are combining "straight up bluffers" and stations in your sentence. forgive me if i misunderstand. but, those two dont co-exist.

and, yes, you force players, in general, to call with no odds. but, you also run a risk of misreading your villain's hand and committing yourself to a bigger pot with a losing hand all in the name of denying odds. there's a balance. but, that gets into implied odds and paying off scare cards...all a different discussion.

as for the c/c stuff, you had BETTER follow a c/c with a value bet. again, i may be misunderstanding, but if your villain is c/calling you, you can assume he doesnt like his hand enough to raise...or if he's tricky, he may be planning a c/r. but, this guy didnt. he c/c'd the flop and donked the turn. and, the CO went c/c, c/c again.

i also never said i wasnt folding to a push/RR. i just dont see it coming. but, thats why i valuebet this river small. i am not interested in stacking off. i am not calling a push. but, i feel i have the better hand and dont think another A, or the K, can fold to a small river bet. you need to size it to where players will take your bet seriously, but will announce strength when you still have enough to get away. if you are sure you are ahead, you may try and induce a bluff here by betting even smaller, to trigger a bluff shove on the river. but, again, that takes a read which we dont have. overbet your river, and you ARE committed to calling a raise.

its a dicey situation. but, one that requires delicate sizing, imo. but, i still think it has to be bet. but, thats where i may be the fish. i just know these guys call off light.

oh, and as for your sig...i'll finish it for you...
Doc (continues): "Only suckers gambool. the odds are always on the house."

[wellrounded08]

FIRST AND FORMOST CHOPPER: Any fan of Tombstone is a freind of mine.

dont hate to disagree. this is how we learn...myself included. i am far from the best player here. i am only stating my opinion of what i do down here. i can beat these games, but others beat it far worse, and may very well agree with you and put me in my place. so, dont worry about disagreeing with me...ever. lol.

i think i see a contradiction in your statement, though. the "punish the bluffers..." sentence confuses me a little. i dont call ALL their raises. i do so with good hands, and let them spew into me. but, if the board is coordinated at all, i play my hand fast. bluffers HATE aggression, too. but, they do wake up with hands sometimes as well. you just have to see what they are willing to stack off with, and see how far they take their bluffs. again, it comes back to "reading players." but, we dont have a read here, so thats kind of moot.

and, we only valuebet marginal hands against passive players. not against players likely to raise us with worse. we look for the stations and never miss a bet against them....but fold to THEIR raises.

thats where i see a contradiction. it seems you are combining "straight up bluffers" and stations in your sentence. forgive me if i misunderstand. but, those two dont co-exist.

>I did appear to say that, but it's not what I meant.(mybad) That was more of a side note-Calling stations I v-bet till my index finger hurts.

and, yes, you force players, in general, to call with no odds. but, you also run a risk of misreading your villain's hand and committing yourself to a bigger pot with a losing hand all in the name of denying odds. there's a balance. but, that gets into implied odds and paying off scare cards...all a different discussion.

as for the c/c stuff, you had BETTER follow a c/c with a value bet. again, i may be misunderstanding, but if your villain is c/calling you, you can assume he doesnt like his hand enough to raise...or if he's tricky, he may be planning a c/r. but, this guy didnt. he c/c'd the flop and donked the turn. and, the CO went c/c, c/c again.

>Here's where I didn't make myself clear again.(mybad) I'm not v-betting a c/r. in most situations. Because most of my hands have moved from A to B range. I've now switched to Pot control.

i also never said i wasnt folding to a push/RR. i just dont see it coming. but, thats why i valuebet this river small. i am not interested in stacking off. i am not calling a push. but, i feel i have the better hand and dont think another A, or the K, can fold to a small river bet. you need to size it to where players will take your bet seriously, but will announce strength when you still have enough to get away. if you are sure you are ahead, you may try and induce a bluff here by betting even smaller, to trigger a bluff shove on the river. but, again, that takes a read which we dont have. overbet your river, and you ARE committed to calling a raise.

>I agree here, I'm certainly not calling a shove. But I see where we are differing now. You say you don't think they are reraising, I think it's too high a possibilty to chance. I just feel that we are better off in the long run checking this particular situation. He's probably not going to get two folds, that's out. So here's what's left. A call with a probably equal chance of being better or worse hand Or we get a reraise and we're out. Therefore, I don't think the bet is +EV

its a dicey situation. but, one that requires delicate sizing, imo. but, i still think it has to be bet. but, thats where i may be the fish. i just know these guys call off light.<True

oh, and as for your sig...i'll finish it for you...
Doc (continues): "Only suckers gambool. the odds are always on the house."
Another doc quote: "Well that must be a peach of a hand."

[littleogre]

while i make my fair share of mistakes i must say the dude with 10/7 played about as bad as possible. He made horrible call after horrible call then when he hits his card on the river he fails to raise for value.

[Chopper]

wellrounded, you make good sense. we just are disagreeing on how each other would play the hand. i talked with a friend of mine last night, about this specific hand, and he sided with you. he said the same thing and called me a spewmonkey. so, oh well. like i said, i dont do this at slightly higher levels. but, i do bet this river at 5NL. i just dont give them any credit for being good players. and, i would just shake my head with how horribly villain played his hand, and got rewarded with a suckout on me...as ogre said.

as for Tombstone, that movie has so many beautiful one-liners it deserves its own thread...

my fave..."i've got two guns. one for each of ya."

[Chopper]

and, oskar, your HH converter is all jacked up. just looking through those hands, i cant tell WHO you are, or what order the betting is coming from.

in the JJ hand, how can CO lead the action on the flop, be followed by MP3, and have you (UTG+1) come in third? very confusing.

but, against THIS opposition, at 5NL, i am looking to felt my overpair. this board is a good board for you after so many players flat called your pfr. its low and a bit coordinated. i protect my hand by betting bigger on the flop. i am very close to potting it. all overpairs underneath us are calling, naked overcards may call, draws call...so CHARGE THEM. i dont see QQ+ in here because i hope they would have 3bet pre. sets should announce themselves with a minraise, or something comparable. so, i think you are alone here. if someone wants to chase AK, i am making them pay BEFORE i see it on the turn/river. therefore, i commit myself to the pot, and shove a safe river...which this likely is.

[wellrounded08]

wellrounded, you make good sense. we just are disagreeing on how each other would play the hand. i talked with a friend of mine last night, about this specific hand, and he sided with you. he said the same thing and called me a spewmonkey. so, oh well. like i said, i dont do this at slightly higher levels. but, i do bet this river at 5NL. i just dont give them any credit for being good players. and, i would just shake my head with how horribly villain played his hand, and got rewarded with a suckout on me...as ogre said.

as for Tombstone, that movie has so many beautiful one-liners it deserves its own thread...

my fave..."i've got two guns. one for each of ya."

lol. I'm sure I'm nitty, and don't get the v-bets in there everytime I should. At my low level of experience I feel it's best until I can more accurately put Opp.'s on a hand.

Favorite Tombstone Scene: First scene in the oriental. Where Wyatt Bitchslaps Billybob Thorton. "Skin them smokewagons boy, SEE what happens."

[Chopper]

i said, jerk them pistols and go to work, boy....well, you just gonna stand there and bleed?

suddenly, i'm in the mood to watch it again tonight.