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 Originally Posted by Monty3038
if I am ahead I can't know it because there is an overcard out there, one they are highly likely to have in their range and have paired... which makes me a little tense... so I' m trying to discern what they have while risking the minimum amount... so I bet usually 1/2 to 2/3 pot to both portray having paired the ace (their fear) and portray that I have higher cards than they do (their second fear) which will prompt a fold... still a winning situation...
I understand what you are saying here. You would rather know on the flop where you stand in the hand than on later and more expensive streets, amirite? And I understand having a vulnerable hand can make one tense, this is to be expected because the marginal hands are always the toughest to play. However, I feel you are looking at some of the information incorrectly (could be me, mind you).
This probably won't happen very often. Because at some point you will either think your good or your opponent will think he is good (or can bluff at it) and there will be a bet put in.
If they bet and I put an Ace in their range, I have to fold, - value
Not necessarily. If you can ONLY put an Ace or better in their range then yes you can check/fold the flop, but that is rare. Remember, as we have a range of hands that we make certain moves with (think A and C ranges, where we either bet for value or bet as a bluff), villians are doing the same. So he may be valuebetting the flop with Ax, set, or 2pair, or he may be bluffing because he totally missed and sees this as his only opportunity to win. And like a said, few people double/triple barrel when bluffing. So if you check and he bets the flop and you call, then you can probably check/fold the turn being pretty confident you were behind.
If I bet and they call... they still may have me beat but it builds the pot and gives me information... breakeven value in the long run possibly...
Have you heard of floating?? Because this is a prime example of it. What's your plan for the turn after you c-bet oop and he calls on the flop? Check/fold? Because if so, then alot of players can easily float the flop with ATC against a player who b/f,c/f in this instance profitably. Also, why do you really want to build a pot, when you are doing it in a way that he is likely to have a better hand? In an instance such as this, you say it gives you information, but when you bet and he calls, that is not a good sign usually. So yeah it built a pot, one that you are likely to lose due to my above reasoning.
If I bet and they raise, they paired the ace, I fold and control the amount lost.
Maybe. Maybe not. You must remember players love to bluff, and some players love to trap. So you may c-bet here and still end up folding the best hand by a player who bluff raises you on the flop, or floats and steals on the turn/river. Or you may get a player who decides to trap and just calls, so then you check/fold the turn, or bet/fold the turn.
If I bet and they fold, I win the amount already in the pot without further risk.
Without further risk, yes. But also without further reward. I think your worried you will get attached to your hand and lose a stack in this instance if you don't bet the flop to "see where you stand". I'm not advocating playing a big pot in this instance against most players. And that won't happen if you check/call, check/fold or some similiar line. Your flop bet is gonna be relatively close to their flop bet, however the difference between you being the aggressor, or them, is that when your the aggressor in this instance, they are likely to call with better and fold worse (bad result). However, if they are the aggressor, whereas, they would fold their worse hands if you bet, they may now bet these hands. And like I said they aren't likely to go for 2-3 streets of value with them, so you can call a street (maybe two), then you realize you are beat. Getting more information, than you would have gotten had you bet imo, and paid about the same price, while also getting value from worse hands.
True, it may not be the best method of extracting maximum value out of the hand, but it also limits the cards coming so they can't 'make' their hand on the next street... for example, they hold a K and a K comes on the river... I've now 3-bet (assuming I continue to bet) and they hit me for a bigger loss.
I think this is a little bit of a situational dependent line that we haven't really accounted for given no specific hand history. It may be better to bet with more draws apparent, and check when it's more of a dry board. I'm sure this depends alot of the preflop action and opponent. So I don't think we can assume anything said so far is true in every instance.
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Flopped pocket underpairs
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