bad cards... any strategy?

[wonderland]

Hi,

I've been playing a lot of SNG tourneys and doing a lot of theory work and improving my game a lot. But i have one question which no one has covered yet.

What happens when you're playing a tourny and you get shit hands for about 60 hands straight?

Is it just a case of die and come back another day when the wind changes direction?

Hi,

I've been playing a lot of SNG tourneys and doing a lot of theory work and improving my game a lot. But i have one question which no one has covered yet.

What happens when you're playing a tourny and you get shit hands for about 60 hands straight?

Is it just a case of die and come back another day when the wind changes direction?

when you get low, it's correct to push with any two if no one has yet come into the pot

[wonderland]

I sort of wondered this but i does that mean i should just bluff a lot?

I think it's rare to bluff many times in a row and get away with it. Also, if people see you're low the 'chip cunt' as i call him will just call you down with anything.

[mikeneron]

You just have to look for spots where you can pick up blinds to stay alive. Hands folded around to you in the SB for example. It happens from time to time, just have to deal with the cards you are given.

I sort of wondered this but i does that mean i should just bluff a lot?

I think it's rare to bluff many times in a row and get away with it. Also, if people see you're low the 'chip cunt' as i call him will just call you down with anything.

Yes, but it's not like you're going to be given those perfect opportunities 5 times in a row. There'll be a limper the next hand, someone will raise in another hand, etc.

so it looks like you have ace high or something when in reality you have J2o

[jyms]

you only need to stay ahead of the blinds. Once an orbit, or twice every two.If by the time your getting that low and you haven't figured out who you can steal from, you haven't paid a attention

[wonderland]

that sounds like good advice, only thing is... by the time you get to the end and the blinds are high, you only need to be called on 2 or 3 bets to be out of the game.

The people you can steal from don't always have cards they want to fold.

but i see your point.

[jyms]

You need to learn about M and quickly before paying another entry.

[wonderland]

ha, funny you should say that, i've had this page opened all day, been waiting to read it:

http://ezinearticles.com/?Poker-Sit-...ents&id=430671

ok then. Cheers.

[AFchung]

HOH part 2 talks about M and inflection point play. i think that section of the book pretty much answers everything you're asking

[wonderland]

cool, i'm reading part one at the moment. Looking forward to hearing about inflection points, sounds dramatic.

cheers.

[oskar]

Try playing an sng blind. Put a post-it note over your cards and, and try to figure out how to win it... it will all make sense.

[wonderland]

hmmm, i like that idea! i saw a video on youtube of someone doing that headsup.

i wonder....

so i've been trying to find this elusive free mzone calculator spreadsheet thing and i've looked all over google for it but i aint there. Anyone?

[taipan168]

I suggest you post a tourney for review, there are almost certainly some shoving spots that you missed.

Re the M calculator, you don't need one - it's very easy to do in your head. Even easier - just use BBs.

[oskar]

I think in BB as long as there are no ante's.
The value of M kind of changes with or without antes. You can open your stealing range a bit more once the antes come in because you get more fold equity from opponents in the BB who think in terms of what they have "invested" in the pot, and not in terms of pot odds.

[JeffreyGB]

hmmm, i like that idea! i saw a video on youtube of someone doing that headsup.

i wonder....

so i've been trying to find this elusive free mzone calculator spreadsheet thing and i've looked all over google for it but i aint there. Anyone?

I've got a hand history somewhere in the archives where I did this. Folded the stone cold nuts twice heads-up because he wouldn't relent on his betting

Also have a two part video series (JGB5 & JGB6) on Grinderschool where I do the same thing. I've recently been thinking about doing another such set.

It's definitely enlightening. It's a good exercise for learning aspects of play that can become more important than cards. Before you do it though, I'd highly recommend getting familiar with the concepts of M-based short stack play, making sure you are very comfortable with position, and play a series of games in which your primary focus is on getting reads on your opponents.

All of these skills are big components of what you rely on if you can't rely on your cards. Once you are comfortable with them, playing without cards will help develop them further.

[wonderland]

sounds good, i just signed up to grinderschool but it wouldn't let me view your video. Is this because i've only just signed up? or do i have to pay?

i see it talks about subscription in the video section. Balls.

they anywhere else?

[JeffreyGB]

sounds good, i just signed up to grinderschool but it wouldn't let me view your video. Is this because i've only just signed up? or do i have to pay?

i see it talks about subscription in the video section. Balls.

they anywhere else?

I'm sorry I wasn't clear before. Yes, Grinderschool is a subscription site. I only mentioned GS because it was specifically related to the topic at hand.

The video set I referenced is only available via a full membership. That gets you weekly videos and complete access to the video library of ~50 SNG videos, ~50 MTT videos, and ~100 cash game videos. I'd be surprised if you didn't find it worth the price.

[wonderland]

the site seems good. Awful design though (i'm a web designer) and yes, an investment.

only thing is i aint got a job at the mo.

don't suppose you have any budget for a new site design? hehe.

I'm playing play money SNGs at the moment to get a feel for things while studying as much as i can for free. I play 2000 buy in 9 seaters on pokerstars. Last night i played 2 tables at the same time and came 2nd in both. Tonight i did the same and came 1st in both. Given that it aint real money is this still a good acheivement??

Gonna try and buy in for some very cheap real money games soon.

[oskar]

Less than 100 games won't tell you anything about how well you play.
Beating playmoney is like stealing candy from a baby. If you can't beat playmoney, then there's little hope for you. If you can beat it... I wouldn't get too excited.

[Illfavor]

Yea... my gf played play money for months with ridiculous success because you can always fold your way ITPM. That just doesn't count.

Then again, PokerStars gave her $5 for free and she's turned that into something at the $1.20 SnGs, so maybe she's good.

If you have no job, get one, then deposit your $50 on Pstars and play the $1.20s. They're are ridiculously easy to beat.

[wonderland]

haha, i bought in with what little money i had $26

went out in the first betting round. All in QQ against KK.

then i got KK as the first hand in my second game and lost 500 chips.

That's a sign.

[oskar]

Post the tournament history. There is always some room for improvement.

[wonderland]

oh man this is grim... i used to play $6 sngs and some $10 ones and i always found the lower the stakes, the harder the game.

so far i've come last and 6th and i found it hard to not finish in the money in play money games. I'll post the hand history when i play a good rounded game. These micro stakes are ten times harder than high stakes play money.

[mikeneron]

If you are finding the lower stakes games harder, then you must be doing something different. I would say post a tourney as soon as possible.

[wonderland]

can someone give me a step by step tutorial. I've tried a dozen times to use the hand converter and this is what i get:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00+$0.20 Tournament, t10/t20 Blinds (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Button (t1500)
SB (t1500)
BB (t1500)
UTG (t1500)
UTG+1 (t1500)
MP1 (t1500)
MP2 (t1500)
MP3 (t1500)
Hero (CO) (t1500)

Preflop: Hero is CO with ,
UTG raises to t80, 5 folds, Button raises to t200, 1 fold, BB calls t180, UTG calls t120, UTG+1 calls t20, MP1 raises to t40, 3 folds, Button raises to t100, 4 folds, MP1 calls t60, MP1 calls t20, 1 fold, MP3 calls t20, 3 folds, BB raises to t80, UTG raises to t200, UTG+1 calls t180, 1 fold, MP3 calls t180, 3 folds, Button raises to t60, 2 folds, UTG+1 raises to t200, 8 folds, MP1 calls t20, 1 fold, MP3 raises to t40, MP1 calls t20, 4 folds, MP1 calls t20, MP2 calls t20, MP3 calls t10, Hero checks, 3 folds, MP1 calls t20, 2 folds, Hero calls t10, Button checks, 1 fold, UTG+1 calls t20, MP1 raises to t40, MP2 calls t40, MP3 calls t40, Hero calls t40, 2 folds, UTG+1 calls t20, 1 fold, MP1 raises to t1290 (All-In), 6 folds, MP1 calls t30, 5 folds, BB calls t15, UTG+1 checks, MP2 calls t30, 1 fold, Hero calls t30, Button calls t30, 2 folds, UTG+1 calls t15, MP1 raises to t60, MP2 calls t30, Hero calls t30, Button calls t30, UTG+1 calls t30, MP3 calls t30, 3 folds, BB raises to t90, UTG+1 calls t90, MP1 calls t75, 3 folds, Button raises to t90, 1 fold, UTG+1 calls t90, MP1 calls t90, 4 folds, UTG+1 calls t30, MP1 calls t30, 1 fold, MP3 calls t15, Hero checks, SB calls t30, 1 fold, MP1 calls t30, 1 fold, MP3 raises to t60, Hero calls t45, 1 fold, SB calls t30, MP1 calls t30, UTG+1 calls t30, MP1 calls t30, 1 fold, MP3 calls t30, 1 fold, Button calls t15, SB checks, 9 folds, Button calls t50, 1 fold, UTG+1 calls t25, MP1 checks, 3 folds, SB calls t50, UTG+1 calls t50, MP1 calls t25, MP2 checks, 5 folds, MP2 calls t25, MP3 checks, 1 fold, SB calls t50, 1 fold, MP1 calls t50, MP2 calls t50, MP3 calls t25, Hero checks, SB calls t50, UTG+1 calls t50, 2 folds, MP3 raises to t60 (All-In), Hero calls t35, Button calls t10, SB calls t10, UTG+1 calls t10, 1 fold, MP1 raises to t1410 (All-In), 4 folds, MP1 calls t50, 3 folds, SB calls t25, UTG+1 checks, 2 folds, Button raises to t150, 2 folds, MP1 calls t100 (All-In), 2 folds, SB calls t50, 1 fold, MP1 raises to t1285 (All-In), 8 folds, UTG+1 calls t100, MP1 calls t100, 1 fold, Hero calls t50, Button checks, 2 folds, MP2 calls t100, 2 folds, SB checks, 5 folds, MP2 calls t100, 1 fold, Button calls t100, 1 fold, UTG+1 calls t50, MP1 checks, 4 folds, MP1 calls t50, MP2 checks, 2 folds, UTG+1 calls t100, 1 fold, MP2 calls t50, Hero checks, SB calls t100, UTG+1 calls t100, MP1 calls t100 (All-In), MP2 calls t100, 1 fold, Button checks, UTG+1 calls t100, 3 folds, Button calls t50, SB checks, MP1 calls t100 (All-In), 3 folds, SB calls t50, UTG+1 checks, MP2 calls t100, 3 folds, UTG+1 calls t50, MP1 checks, 2 folds, SB calls t100, UTG+1 calls t100, MP1 raises to t1085 (All-In), 2 folds, UTG+1 calls t985 (All-In), 2 folds, UTG+1 calls t150 (All-In), MP1 calls t150, 1 fold, Hero checks, 1 fold, UTG+1 calls t150 (All-In), 2 folds, Hero calls t75, Button checks, 1 fold, MP1 calls t150, MP2 raises to t755 (All-In), 5 folds, MP2 raises to t1130 (All-In), 3 folds, UTG+1 calls t980 (All-In), Hero calls t150, 3 folds, MP1 raises to t2070 (All-In), 3 folds, UTG+1 calls t150 (All-In), MP1 calls t75 (All-In), Hero checks, 3 folds, Hero raises to t300, Button calls t150, 1 fold, MP1 calls t150 (All-In), 1 fold, Button calls t75, SB checks, MP1 raises to t1695 (All-In), 1 fold, Button raises to t1865 (All-In), 1 fold, UTG+1 calls t1715 (All-In), SB calls t150, UTG+1 calls t75 (All-In), Hero checks, UTG+1 calls t150 (All-In), 1 fold, SB checks, 2 folds, SB raises to t300, UTG+1 calls t225 (All-In), 1 fold, UTG+1 calls t100 (All-In), Hero raises to t600, UTG+1 calls t400 (All-In)

Flop: (t12280) , , (9 players, 27 all-in)
BB checks, UTG checks, Button bets t500 (All-In), 2 folds, MP1 checks, Button checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 bets t200 (All-In), 1 fold, UTG raises to t1080 (All-In), UTG+1 calls t880 (All-In), MP3 checks, MP1 checks, MP3 checks, Hero checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, Hero checks, Button bets t40 (All-In), MP1 calls t40 (All-In), Hero folds, UTG+1 checks, MP1 bets t40 (All-In), MP2 calls t40, 1 fold, Hero folds, UTG+1 calls t40 (All-In), BB bets t90, UTG+1 calls t90 (All-In), 1 fold, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, Hero checks, Button bets t120 (All-In), UTG+1 calls t120 (All-In), 2 folds, Hero folds, MP1 bets t30 (All-In), BB raises to t300, UTG+1 calls t300 (All-In), 1 fold, Button checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, MP3 checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, Hero checks, SB checks, MP1 checks, MP3 bets t1140 (All-In), Hero folds, 2 folds, Button checks, SB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, MP3 checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, Button bets t200 (All-In), 2 folds, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, SB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP2 checks, MP3 checks, MP3 checks, Hero bets t50, 3 folds, MP3 calls t50, Hero bets t50, Button calls t50 (All-In), SB calls t50, 1 fold, SB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, MP1 checks, Button bets t150 (All-In), 1 fold, Hero checks, Button checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, SB checks, MP2 checks, 1 fold, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, Button bets t200 (All-In), 2 folds, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, MP2 checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 bets t300 (All-In), 1 fold, Hero folds, Button checks, SB bets t200, 4 folds, Button bets t175 (All-In), 1 fold, UTG+1 calls t175 (All-In), SB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 bets t885 (All-In), 2 folds, UTG+1 bets t300 (All-In), 2 folds, Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, Hero checks, Button checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 bets t150 (All-In), Hero folds, UTG+1 raises to t1500 (All-In), 1 fold, Hero bets t1855 (All-In), 1 fold, Button bets t150 (All-In), SB calls t150, MP1 calls t150 (All-In), UTG+1 checks, Hero checks, SB checks, SB checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+1 checks, SB bets t300, UTG+1 calls t300 (All-In), Hero bets t1705 (All-In), UTG+1 calls t1705 (All-In)

Turn: (t27740) (8 players, 96 all-in)
MP1 bets t40 (All-In), Button calls t40 (All-In), MP3 bets t420 (All-In), 1 fold, MP3 checks, Hero checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, Button checks, MP1 bets t1290 (All-In), 1 fold, UTG+1 checks, MP1 bets t40 (All-In), MP2 calls t40, UTG+1 calls t40 (All-In), BB checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+1 bets t210 (All-In), 1 fold, BB bets t270, UTG+1 calls t270 (All-In), Button checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 bets t60 (All-In), 2 folds, MP3 checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, Button bets t90 (All-In), 1 fold, UTG+1 calls t90 (All-In), MP1 calls t90 (All-In), 1 fold, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, SB bets t50, UTG+1 calls t50 (All-In), 2 folds, MP2 checks, MP3 checks, MP3 checks, Hero checks, Hero checks, Button checks, SB checks, SB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, Hero checks, Button checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, SB checks, MP2 checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, Button bets t200 (All-In), UTG+1 calls t200 (All-In), Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, Hero checks, Button checks, UTG+1 checks, Button checks, SB checks, MP1 checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets t150 (All-In), 1 fold, UTG+1 calls t150 (All-In), SB checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+1 checks, SB bets t300, UTG+1 raises to t600 (All-In), SB raises to t1230 (All-In), UTG+1 calls t630 (All-In)

River: (t33020) (9 players, 152 all-in)
MP1 checks, Button checks, MP3 checks, Hero checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 bets t20 (All-In), MP2 calls t20, UTG+1 calls t20 (All-In), BB bets t90, 1 fold, BB bets t670 (All-In), UTG+1 calls t670 (All-In), MP3 checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, Button checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 bets t1140 (All-In), 2 folds, SB bets t100 (All-In), 1 fold, MP2 bets t400 (All-In), 1 fold, MP3 bets t150 (All-In), Hero raises to t300 (All-In), MP3 raises to t1230 (All-In), Hero calls t870 (All-In), Hero bets t125 (All-In), Button raises to t300 (All-In), 1 fold, Hero folds, SB bets t50 (All-In), 2 folds, Hero checks, Button bets t400 (All-In), 2 folds, Hero folds, SB checks, MP2 checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, Button checks, UTG+1 bets t600 (All-In), 1 fold, Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, Hero checks, Button bets t150 (All-In), 1 fold, Hero folds, Button checks, SB bets t300 (All-In), 2 folds, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets t150 (All-In), UTG+1 calls t150 (All-In), SB bets t150 (All-In), UTG+1 calls t150 (All-In)

Total pot: t41075

[oskar]

http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com...-Converter.php

This is what you should use, not the hand converter.