dangers of low stakes idiots?

[wonderland]

Hi there,

Been playing micro stakes $1 games and getting demolished. Play about ten games a day and my win rate is about 40%.

Starting to realise that a significant portion of the time this is happening:

I raise 3/4 x BB pre flop with premium hand. Donk calls. Then these scenarios commonly happen:

1. I miss, i bet, they raise. Sometimes i go all in and am called with A rag and they've paired their rag or even Q rag.
2. I bet big because i have hit really well... they call... I bet big again and they call again... we might end up at showdown where they turn over a really weak hand.

I've also seen people go all in, get called. The donk turns over A 8 and the raiser turns over AK. The donk wins.

For me this raises the question of, should people who play by the ABC of SNG poker really be in with all these idiots? they're stupid, sure, but they're so dangerous?!

Wouldn't it be better to play slightly higher stakes?

[Rage2100]

Wouldn't it be better to play slightly higher stakes?

No, this is a myth among a lot of players who are just starting out. If you can't beat the micro stakes, you will get destroyed playing at higher stakes.

Just wait for good hands and keep betting them. I saw you posted a tourney history a few days back. I only had a quick look, but there was some good advice in the replies you got. Print it out and keep looking through it, post more hands, and keep taking the good advice and learning from it. You will learn loads here.

[fulksy]

those people that show down weak hands and call your big hands with A rag and with other garbage, are the same players who are going to pay you off when you have a good hand, these are the players who in long run are going to make you a winning player. you will get tons of bad beats in micro stakes because you will be constantly going in with the best of it . but rest assured in the long run you will see the profit from these players. learn to take the bad beats (something that took me a while to do) and you will do fine. another thing off topic i've had a couple tilt sessions where i have some bad beats then went up in stakes because i think i'm going to win some money back, bad idea : )

[wonderland]

yeah, cheers guys.

Rage, i love your avatar.

And that is in the bible of mirco or probably any other stakes: don't go up a level to recoup.

But i will surprise you and say that i started out (pre FTR days and pre bank roll management days) by playing a mixture of $5 and $10 games where i came in the money about 5/10 times and some 1st and 2nd pos came up. I ended up doubling my bank roll in two days but lost it all in 3 games because i lost 3 $10 games in a row.

Since then i have reeeeally knuckled down in my SNG theory, started playing $1 games and am finding it a lot harder. People are tighter than a cats arse or call you with poor winning hands.

That's fine about them paying me off in the end, sure. Thing is, it's a coin toss so much of the time. One game they beat me, next game i beat them, but overall i'm losing out.

I guess i just need a ton of practise. I feel the best thing is to learn to get a read on the players. I tend to only be able to do this for one game if i'm playing 2 up. Focus on one window and forget the other.

[fulksy]

imo while learning stick with one table take lots of notes on players. if your playing solid strategy it won't be a coin flip, especially in low/micro with those weaker players be patient in the long run you will see profit. and also imo stick to the micros sounds like thats where your bankroll is around. good luck man

[taipan168]

I wrote a post a little while ago on dealing with bad beats (it is in the Beginners Digest) which may be helpful:

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...st-t61079.html

[wonderland]

cheers guys.

I read that thing on bad beats. Pretty good. I suffer badly, get consumed in hatred and all kinds of subjective ideas go through my head. Someone once said that you get more bad beats online than live. *shrug*

If so i think it's because people take more risks online + there are a lot lower stakes games online than in casinos. Would people risk 100 bucks if they could feel the chips in their hands Vs would someone risk $1 in a virtual game chasing a flush. Makes sense i guess.

[wonderland]

OH MY GOD!!!!

It just happened again. I swear i can't be playing these stakes anymore.

This just happened in one game:

1) AK pre flop raise with 120 early on in the game. One caller. Miss like a bitch on the flop, they bet 100 i call, J on the turn. They check, i bet 150. Call, queen on the river, I bet about 150. Call. They turn over Q6.

2) I get JQ and raise 120. One caller. Miss the flop like a bitch. 2 9 3 or something. Go all in because i'm absolutely fucked if i don't take some chips back. Get called. You know what called me down? 9 3 off suit.

I just can't affort to play these stakes anymore. It's not like a normal game, we're playing ABC tight aggressive proven tactics but against people who are playing by their own rules. It's bullshit, and the thing is, i'm losing 6 or 7 times out of ten as a result.

In simple terms: PLAYING ABC POKER IS NOT PROFITABLE AT THESE SKILL LEVELS.

EDIT: i'm doing the unthinkable and playing $3 games, don't care if i lose my bankrool. But... i just did has the same thing happen but in my favour.

Raised with JQ was called. Flop comes down J bla Q. I bet 250. Get called and there's a third spade on the turn. Shit. I bet something massive and they call again. At showdown they turn over 7 2 off.

FFS.

[taipan168]

1) AK pre flop raise with 120 early on in the game. One caller. Miss like a bitch on the flop, they bet 100 i call, J on the turn. They check, i bet 150. Call, queen on the river, I bet about 150. Call. They turn over Q6.

Dude, once you c-bet once on the flop and get called, SHUT DOWN! Did you remember what I wrote in the Low Buyin SNGs Dos and Dont's? You spewed an extra 300 chips for nothing here. Plus (not that I would) did you think about your bet sizing and the odds you are offering opp to call? Your turn bet offers opp about 3:1 to call, they aren't going to fold here.

2) I get JQ and raise 120. One caller. Miss the flop like a bitch. 2 9 3 or something. Go all in because i'm absolutely fucked if i don't take some chips back. Get called. You know what called me down? 9 3 off suit.

Firstly, what position were you in? If you are in early or mid position I would fold QJ pretty fast. Secondly, if you were so short that you needed to shove the flop then you should be shoving or folding preflop.

In simple terms: PLAYING ABC POKER IS NOT PROFITABLE AT THESE SKILL LEVELS.

WRONG WRONG WRONG, ABC poker works BEST at low buyins. The reason is, you are getting called when you have the best of it so you win the maximum, and because if you get called or raised you generally have the worst of it, so you lose the minimum.

EDIT: i'm doing the unthinkable and playing $3 games, don't care if i lose my bankrool. But... i just did has the same thing happen but in my favour.

If you can reload, that's fine - but be aware that I can almost guarantee that if you play under-rolled you WILL go busto at some stage.

Raised with JQ was called. Flop comes down J bla Q. I bet 250. Get called and there's a third spade on the turn. Shit. I bet something massive and they call again. At showdown they turn over 7 2 off.

And this is bad because....?

[Stacks]

I just can't affort to play these stakes anymore. It's not like a normal game, we're playing ABC tight aggressive proven tactics but against people who are playing by their own rules. It's bullshit, and the thing is, i'm losing 6 or 7 times out of ten as a result.

In simple terms: PLAYING ABC POKER IS NOT PROFITABLE AT THESE SKILL LEVELS.

First off please, please, please make sure that you aren't only on this forum to post. You need to be here to listen and read as well. The reason I say this is because I, as well as many other players, have told you numerous times about players missing the flop etc., and it doesn't only happen to you. That seems to be your major hangup. Cuz I've seen you say something to the effect of "How can I win if I don't hit, etc." numerous times. I don't know if your under the impression that just because your hand is solid preflop, or even the favorite preflop, that it will always be the favorite on the flop or that it has to improve. This simply isn't the case. You will hit the flop just as often as anyone else would in that situation. And anyone can play when the deck is smashing them in the face. It's good players that can play when it isn't, and this doesn't mean begin bluffing in hopeless and outrageous spots. It just means good players make the a +ev move regardless of whether they are smashing the flop or not.

The bold parts in the quote are truly flawed ways of thinking and you have alot of hurdles to get over than you think. First off you already assume you are playing SOLID ABC POKER, but for the few instances you have shown you are not. And have a ways to go. This is proven by the fact that if you were playing SOLID ABC POKER, you would be crushing the stakes you are at, and even up to much higher stakes. Also you seem to be missing the point I have tried dictating several times to you, and that is that during a SNG the situation changes so often that a tight of play that was profitable at one point in a sng will not be profitable at a later point in the same SNG. You have to learn to adapt, or you will continue to lose. It's survival of the fittest basically.

Have you really sit down and attempted to get better or not? Have you read a strategy post about SNGs from beginning to end numerous times until you understand everything in that post?? If so, it's not enough at this point, and you need to either settle and continue to get your dismal results or adapt and study in a more effective manner. The stakes in which you are playing can be easily beaten from a player who soaks up all the information that has been given to you.

[wonderland]

cheers taipan.

Yeah, i treat that do's and don'ts as the ABC of low stakes (as much as i can remember it anyway and of course i make bad decisions at times too).

That last hand wasn't bad, it was good but my point was that it sort of feels useless raising with AK only to miss and think, well, i'm ahead so i'll CBET here and then get destroyed with nothing nothing offsuit. I swear i have to take a deep breath when i get a good hand! Here we go again.

I know i shouldn't play the $3 dollar games but the rate i'm going, i'll lose my bankroll anyway to the $1 games. They're too random, it's like playing roulette. Incidentally i finished 3rd in that first $3 game. After mister 7 2 went bust it got quite sane.

My current situation is:
Phase one of the game is quite volatile and is where i go out the most i think. Too many weird plays but i can spot all the weak players easy (min bets, calls, multiple calls then fold, min raise) so that's one thing.

Phase two is the easiest if i've made so much as 2000 chips by then. Just sit it out and play tight.

Phase three (say 4 players) is also very very hard but in a straightforward way. This is what happens often:
- Everyone folds to the BB
- Someone steals the blinds, god knows with what
- I try to have a go at stealing and get raised but at such a low chip count, i'd be risking 'the money' if i fought for it.

That cycle goes on forever until someone goes all in. Usually i'm all in a LOT at that stage and getting through by pure grace. It's just fold fold fold, everyone scared to make a move. Here is where i'm at my most unsure because one false move and i'm out.

[wonderland]

Sorry Stacks i got your response after i made my last comment.

I want to hear that i'm doing something wrong really because it's dismal thinking that there's no hope in trying. So i need to go back to the drawing board. I think i had a false start see. A little while ago i started playing 5 and 10 dollar SNGs and doing ok. Finishing in the money about 5/10 times and making some profit. Never having read anything on SNGs. But my bank roll couldnt support it and i lost a few in a row.

So now playing $1 i'm more shocked than one would normally expect coz I'm not doing AS good as before and that's with reading/watching tutorials. I suspect it's because i'm trying new things, i was never aggressive before and i'm not comfortable with it at all yet. I used to sit back and sneak in and slow play. Oh don't worry I aint doing that anymore. Hideous mistake.

Ok, i'm gonna go back to the drawing board and read some more. If you say it's possible to kill at micro with the right learning then so be it. I sometimes feel like it's not possible, i just need someone's perspective who's more experienced than me, and to trust it. Which is hard when you're being destroyed repeatedly by worse players than you.

Thanks to everyone who has been helping me, just to give some background, I'm wanting a career in this quite desperately. I want to be doing it for a living, so it's important to me.

[fjuanl]

I havent read all of your entire posts but from what it seems, you have a lot of leaks in your game and aren't playing "ABC poker". Taipan pointed out the hands that I'm talking about. To me it seems like all your focus is on how bad your opponents are, but do you know where you need to improve? No one plays perfect poker and it seems like your scapegoating your own mistakes on the bad plays of your opponents. Post a few trimmed hand histories and I'd be willing to give some feedback

[oskar]

I think it has been made rather clear in your HH post that you play terribly. No offense, we all love you anyway, but you hardly played a hand without making an obvious mistake, and it continues here. You're not magically getting better within 2 days. Give it some time.

Nothing is easier than $1 sng's. If you can't beat them, you will get destroyed at higher levels. When in doubt, post another HH.

[taipan168]

Wonderland, post some more hands/tourneys and we will take a look. As fjuanl said, that is by far the best way to improve quickly.

[wonderland]

cheers guys, no hard feelings. If i have holes or are playing shit and people can show me that, then that's exactly what i want.

it's frustrating that when posting hands, there's SO much to a whole game but it only displays a few dozen hands. But i guess a hand is a hand.

I guess i need to find a game where i get creamed to highlight my best weaknesses.

Thanks again, always appreciate it.

I play ABC tag poker and I'm up 20 buyins at the 1 dollar SNGs and I've already moved up to 2.50 ones since I'm rolled for them

I'm also on top of the SNG leaderboard for the site I play on

[Rycky4Golf]

I play ABC tag poker and I'm up 20 buyins at the 1 dollar SNGs and I've already moved up to 2.50 ones since I'm rolled for them

I'm also on top of the SNG leaderboard for the site I play on

Nice job iopq... what site do you play on?

[Stacks]

My current situation is:
Phase one of the game is quite volatile and is where i go out the most i think. Too many weird plays but i can spot all the weak players easy (min bets, calls, multiple calls then fold, min raise) so that's one thing.

Phase two is the easiest if i've made so much as 2000 chips by then. Just sit it out and play tight.

Your attitude seems like it's in the right place, therefore, I'm willing to help, and I'm sure others will continue. I don't have much time, but I'll right this quickly and elaborate on it more later. Phase one of the SNG is the early game and it sure be the easiest part of the game. You should be playing as nitty as hell (very tight). Reasons can be found in my last post. The middle part of the SNG is when you should begin loosening up. Once again the reasons can be found in my previous post. If you find yourself playing loose in the early portion of the game, and tightening up as the game advances you are making some crucial mistakes.

I advise you to click on the "Come chat with us" link in my signature, and follow the instructions in the thread. If you come to #flopturnriver, I'll be more than happy to sit down and talk a little with you about SNGs in pm's etc and it should help some. And being in an atmosphere with alot of good players discussing poker, etc. and you should improve rapidly.

[wonderland]

Hey stacks.

That's fantastic, thanks. I downloaded MIRC and followed the video tutorial by Spoon.

I'll try to get you on there some time.

I was also thinking of making a video of me playing and posting that somewhere so you can see how i'm playing more easily than going through a hand history. It's also a chance to explain my thought process and mention where i'm uncertain about a move.

Thanks for the help

[Stacks]

Good Deal. I'll be in irc almost all day saturday and sunday grinding. If you come in I'll be glad to talk with you a little. You will have to keep in mind that I am still a beginner, and that I haven't grinded SNGs in a few months, but I'm sure I could help you in some way. And I'm sure you will pick up some things from others as well.

And about the video, that's a good idea. The only thing is a normal SNG lasts around an hour or so, but it takes way less than that to scan through a trimmed tourney. If you want post up a trimmed tourney, and self analyze each hand with your thoughts. I did this a few times and it helped alot.

[wonderland]

ok fair enough.

So, i just posted my HH from my last tourney in the SNG section, go check it out if you like!

cheers.