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easy fold with over pair?

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  1. #1
    fulksy's Avatar
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    Default easy fold with over pair?

    i raised standard preflop which makes me wonder what he had i think easy fold.

    No Limit Holdem Tournament
    $2 + $0.25 Sit & Go
    8 players
    Converted at weaktight.com

    Stacks:
    UTG jwflash (1440)
    UTG+1 malinadan (2180)
    MP1 Kokomo57 (2505)
    MP2 mrtdese (1350)
    CO hangchiong (1455)
    BTN Hero (1550)
    SB northernmunkey (1610)
    BB BETtheMAN (1410)

    Blinds: 20/40

    Pre-flop: (60, 8 players) Hero is BTN
    1 fold, malinadan calls 40, 3 folds, BETtheMAN says "f ", BETtheMAN says " u ", BETtheMAN says " k", BETtheMAN says " u", Hero raises to 160, 2 folds, malinadan calls 120

    Flop: (380, 2 players)
    malinadan checks, Hero bets 360, BETtheMAN says "a german and a nuck", BETtheMAN says " lol", Kokomo57 says "????", malinadan calls 360

    Turn: (1100, 2 players)
    malinadan bets 480, Hero folds

    Final Pot: 1100
  2. #2
    At this level, I would shove over and expect to be ahead most of the time. If he has a set, two pair or 9x/4x then I pay him.

    BTW, did you notice that hangchiong was on your table?
  3. #3
    no way are you ahead....taipan...whens the last time you played a $2 sng?
  4. #4
    fulksy's Avatar
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    yea i said i saw he posts on ftr but no response guess hes not a chatter while playing. yea i can't see me being ahead here, i hate folding but just because i'm in denile that someone could be ahead after a preflop raise. but i m pretty sure i'm behind here so i have to fold i think.
  5. #5
    hey fulksy,sorry for the no-response during the game
    i wasnt aware about it,and i dont really chat while playing,doing 4-tabling.
    about the hand,its a reallytough decision IMO.

    but like taipan said,i might pay him off.you might be behind,but you might be ahead.i guess there wasnt any reads,giving that it was early,i cant remember my reads on him as well.
  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by brian1175
    no way are you ahead....taipan...whens the last time you played a $2 sng?
    It's been a while, admittedly. Actually, when I was at lower buyins, they didn't even have $2 games.

    That said, let's look at the sorts of hands that opp might have here. If he has 4x and just hit the OESD, good luck to him, same if he has 9x and called not only our preflop raise but a huge flop bet with a gutshot. If he has 55-88 and has a set, or 87, 76, 65 or some other two pair hand we are paying him regardless (and are not completely dead on the river either). The thing is, even at a $27/$38 SNG you will see people turn up with the most weird holdings here, sometimes as weak as missed overcards - so I can't fold here.

    Having four to a straight on board (particularly when it's not something like KQJT or 5432) is very different to having four to a flush on board.
  7. #7
    I don't like continuing with the hand. We still have a little over 1K chips if we fold and we're up against a terrible board which could easily have us dead. What hands do you expect to run into Tai? A8? I'd wait for a better spot.
  8. #8
    Nice size raise preflop. On that flop I prob bet a little less, but no biggie.

    When he calls the flop bet, I believe his most likely holdings to be 45, 78, A8, A4, 89, 44, (88 prob would have raised but we'll stick it in) or some club draw. Less likely are random hands containing containing 8's or 4's,random 6's or 5's, or complete air.


    Turn brings 4 cards to the straight. He bets half the pot, which could mean a few things:

    1)He's made his straight and is getting value

    2)He has a set and is now protecting his hand

    3)He is semi-bluffing a good scare card.


    Now you have to ask yourself what are the likely-hoods of these options?

    Of the hands I have put him on preflop, you are still beating A-8, the club draw, and most of the randoms. Against the rest, you have at most %18 equity (against 2 pair hands)

    (I realize you may have some chop equity if he has set/2 pair, but since its small, we'll ignore it)

    So, we'll say for arguments sake, %50 of the time he's bluffing/semi-bluffing, %50 of the time he has 2 pair or better.

    Here we go:

    Pot has 1580, I think are options are shove/fold obv. Hero has 1030 behind. So if we push the pot will have 3160 (Assuming villian calls). So we're getting 2:1 basically.

    Option 1) When he has 2 pair or better, we'll be generous and say our average equity is %10. (Remember we could already be drawing dead)

    equity is %10 x 3160= 316

    Option 2) He is bluffing/semi-bluffing. We'll say our Equity versus this range is 75%. (Did a quick range on Pokerstove)

    equity is %75 x 3160= 2370

    Therefore our combined equities are

    (%50 x 316) + (%50 x 2370) = 1343

    since 1343 > 1030, we shove!


    This hand becomes EV neutral when villain is bluffing/semi bluffing only

    ~%35 of the time.

    So, you can now argue over whether you think he bluffs/semi bluffs this enough to be profitable.


    I call.

    Sorry for the long answer, hope it helped


    Don't complain; Just work harder - Randy Pausch (The Last Lecture)
  9. #9
    The problem is, When your playing the low limits you have to throw away hands like this or you will not profit at the low levels. Wait for a hand to hit and walk it through them....you have to be patient.

    When I was looking at Fulskys sng in another thread http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...se-t76097.html
    the first hand reminded me of this one. You just simply can't put them on any range. Just wait for your hand to hit and get paid...this is a $5 18 man...very bad players


    POKERSTARS GAME #20454163269: TOURNAMENT #108570119, $5.00+$0.50 HOLD'EM NO LIMIT - LEVEL IV (50/100) - 2008/09/16 13:47:43 ET
    Table '108570119 2' 9-max Seat #1 is the button
    Seat 1: banks29 (4770 in chips)
    Seat 2: Komisch3000 (2355 in chips)
    Seat 3: taxrelief (2075 in chips)
    Seat 4: Lackeo (3525 in chips)
    Seat 5: cooksginger (1570 in chips)
    Seat 6: brian1175 (2350 in chips)
    Seat 7: buckeyebill8 (2090 in chips)
    Seat 8: swiebertje (3410 in chips)
    Seat 9: Tilty72 (4855 in chips)
    Komisch3000: posts small blind 50
    taxrelief: posts big blind 100
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to brian1175 [9c 9s]
    Lackeo: folds
    cooksginger: folds
    brian1175: raises 200 to 300
    buckeyebill8: folds
    swiebertje: folds
    Tilty72: calls 300
    banks29: folds
    Komisch3000: folds
    taxrelief: folds
    *** FLOP *** [Qc 9d 9h]
    brian1175: checks
    Tilty72: bets 300
    brian1175: calls 300
    *** TURN *** [Qc 9d 9h] [7d]
    brian1175: checks
    Tilty72: bets 500
    brian1175: calls 500
    *** RIVER *** [Qc 9d 9h 7d] [8s]
    brian1175: bets 500
    Tilty72: raises 500 to 1000
    brian1175: raises 250 to 1250 and is all-in
    Tilty72: calls 250
    *** SHOW DOWN ***
    brian1175: shows [9c 9s] (four of a kind, Nines)
    Tilty72: shows [Tc Kc] (a pair of Nines)
    Tilty72 said, "vnh"
    brian1175 collected 4850 from pot
    *** SUMMARY ***
    Total pot 4850 | Rake 0
    Board [Qc 9d 9h 7d 8s]
    Seat 1: banks29 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 2: Komisch3000 (small blind) folded before Flop
    Seat 3: taxrelief (big blind) folded before Flop
    Seat 4: Lackeo folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 5: cooksginger folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 6: brian1175 showed [9c 9s] and won (4850) with four of a kind, Nines
    Seat 7: buckeyebill8 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 8: swiebertje folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 9: Tilty72 showed [Tc Kc] and lost with a pair of Nines
  10. #10
    fulksy's Avatar
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    thanks helps lots, the only concern i have is that i don't see a ton of players semi bluffing scare cards in this level i find more often they will call on weak draws and bet if they hit. i totally understand the whole ev concept you laid out but at this level i don't see them semibluffing that card as much. but you guys would know better than me so i will definatly take that into account the next time i'm in this situation. thanks again

    hangchoing no problem i figured you were multitabling mostlycause i saw you on three i was playing, one of them you busted me with your rockets lol.
  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by brian1175
    The problem is, When your playing the low limits you have to throw away hands like this or you will not profit at the low levels. Wait for a hand to hit and walk it through them....you have to be patient.
    I agree you should be patient, but you can't wait for the immortal nuts everytime, most games they don't show up.

    The fact is, he has a good hand here! But its all relative. The real question you should ask is "is it good enough in this situation?"

    So what you have to focus on is getting your money in good, in the right situations. That doesn't mean it has to be a 95% favorite to win, any situation in a SNG that has positive expected value (ICM theory included) is the right one.


    Don't complain; Just work harder - Randy Pausch (The Last Lecture)
  12. #12
    oskar's Avatar
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    in ur accounts... confiscating ur funz
    I shove over. I can't figure out too many hands that would call pf, call on the flop and have you beat on the turn.
    That is of course assuming that the villain played reasonably so far. Would be an easier decision if you had any information on the villain... anything at all.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  13. #13
    Im not saying wait for the "nuts". Just the best hand will do.
    But honestly, when playing bad players, keep a decent stack and take em when the blinds get good....
  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by brian1175
    I'm not saying wait for the "nuts". Just the best hand will do.
    But honestly, when playing bad players, keep a decent stack and take em when the blinds get good....
    You're right, generally the players at these levels play horribly when the

    blinds increase and you can really exploit it. So it sounds like you are a

    player who tries to avoid marginal situations early so that you can really

    have a better shot when the blinds go up. It's a fair point, and you can

    play very profitably this way. I myself don't mind the marginal situations

    even at these stakes. You said yourself "just the best hand will do". I believe

    we have the best hand here often enough under the circumstances, even if

    it only shows a small profit over time.


    Don't complain; Just work harder - Randy Pausch (The Last Lecture)

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