Help with c-betting

[Nakamura]

I still suck at c-betting. I feel I am consistently getting it wrong.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $5.00+$0.20 Tournament, 15/30 Blinds (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG (t1500)
UTG+1 (t590)
MP1 (t1470)
Hero (MP2) (t1470)
MP3 (t1470)
CO (t1990)
Button (t1465)
SB (t1935)
BB (t1540)

Hero's M: 32.67

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with ,
UTG calls t30, 2 folds, Hero raises to t140, 3 folds, Button calls t140, SB calls t125, 2 folds

Flop: (t480) , , (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets t220, Button raises to t480, 1 fold, Hero folds

Total pot: t920

[Thunder]

Button could have anything and be using his position. Doubtful he hit the flop or has a set. He didn't 3 bet pre so unlikely to have JJ+. He most probably has Ax+ or mid pair. Normally I'd push but right now, I'd get called by A 3 and lose.

[Nakamura]

Button could have anything and be using his position. Doubtful he hit the flop or has a set. He didn't 3 bet pre so unlikely to have JJ+. He most probably has Ax+ or mid pair. Normally I'd push but right now, I'd get called by A 3 and lose.

I considered pushing but I'm not sure this is the optimal move. This is mostly likely a steal attempt by the villain, but I'm not prepared to go bust on this flop.

[Thunder]

I considered pushing but I'm not sure this is the optimal move. This is mostly likely a steal attempt by the villain, but I'm not prepared to go bust on this flop.

???????????

You admit villain is probably stealing, you're sat with the 3rd best hand in NLHE and yet think the optimum move is to donk off 1/3 of your stack to a steal attempt on a dry board when you have two ways to win and are at least 75% to win if he feels committed?

[flomo]

i fold

[Thunder]

To clarify, if you think he has a pair, then fold. But if not, I would push.

[Nakamura]

... you're sat with the 3rd best hand in NLHE and yet think the optimum move is to donk off 1/3 of your stack to a steal attempt on a dry board when you have two ways to win and are at least 75% to win if he feels committed?

The 3rd best hand?? QQ??

We aren't donking off chips here we are making a c-bet with what we consider to be the best hand right now. Whether or not I should be c-betting or not is another story on it's own.

From TLR's c-betting thread,

"When your c-bet is raised
You need either strong draws or a good read on villain that he can be raising with total air to pick up your c-bet to jusity calling or raising, usually you need to fold. If you are not willing to fold you are better off pushing in the first place. "

While the villain could be doing this Ax or two random cards, there is a good chance he has hit something on the flop or already has a hand. I am reasonably sure that without any reads on your opp, stacking off here is -EV for both players over the long-term.

[Thunder]

So why are you posting?

You are certain in your play and the decisions you make so why are you bothering to even post these hands?

Also, make your mind up - either you are confident he has air or you are sure he has hit. If air, then it's EV+ to shove. If not, then it's EV+ to fold. Which is what I said.

And yes, it is donking 1/3 of your stack if you fold believing he is on a steal.

[Nakamura]

I didn't really make it clear in the first post but I'm interested in thoughts about whether a c-bet is appropriate considering our position and given the flop texture.

[flomo]

no c-bet for me on this one
i'd be happier ot c-bet a limped pot on this board

[CorbinDallas]

this may be awful but.... when i have AK AQ early in a 1 or 2 table sit n go... i rarely cbet. the amount of chips you win by cbetting in the first 2 levels are usually insignificant to making the money or winning.

[fjuanl]

Uhh to those who are arguing that villian is bluffing...it seems completely illogical. Hero has just raised over a UTG limp and cbet into two players on a board with almost no draws. You think its common for someone to go nuts with no pair/draw??

I'd almost never cbet this board 3 handed but if it were heads up I think cbetting is fine.

[drmcboy]

I'd c bet from BU but probably check here

[Rage2100]

I wouldn't c-bet here either. I see this is a DoN too. I hardly ever c-bet in these early on unless I connect with the board, especially with two other players in the hand.

Also, I would just make it 120 pre-flop.

[caddie444]

I'd c bet from BU but probably check here

yep

[taipan168]

I don't c-bet here, mainly because there are two players who called your raise. I agree with drmcboy that a c-bet is in order if we were in position and they had both checked.

Against one opponent I would c-bet this board most of the time whether in position or not.

As played, there is no question that we need to fold after our c-bet gets raised.

Also, make your mind up - either you are confident he has air or you are sure he has hit. If air, then it's EV+ to shove. If not, then it's EV+ to fold. Which is what I said.

You need to consider the ranges of hands that opp might have to pull this move. Sure, some of the time it is air/bluff but a lot of the time opp will have a piece of this board meaning that we are drawing to 6 outs at best (and almost dead if opp has a set). Plus we have very little fold equity by shoving over.

[Thunder]

Good arguments. If I had a set though I wouldn't be raising on the flop. I am also biased by the amount of numptys who are making these exact plays with air - and winning.

[taipan168]

Good arguments. If I had a set though I wouldn't be raising on the flop.

I would raise the flop at least some of the time with a set, particularly with three players seeing the flop.

[Nakamura]

Uhh to those who are arguing that villian is bluffing...it seems completely illogical. Hero has just raised over a UTG limp and cbet into two players on a board with almost no draws. You think its common for someone to go nuts with no pair/draw??

I'd almost never cbet this board 3 handed but if it were heads up I think cbetting is fine.

Here's a similar hand ... http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...nd-t78273.html

[Outlaw]

What were the villains running? Impossible to say whether to c-bet here or not with no history on opponents.

You have to cbet your hands that miss too or you never get action on the ones that hit. Forget that its a shallow sng, think of a session as being one big sng, cbet relentlessly or you'll get run over in the higher buyins.

Tj

[Nakamura]

What were the villains running? Impossible to say whether to c-bet here or not with no history on opponents.

You have to cbet your hands that miss too or you never get action on the ones that hit. Forget that its a shallow sng, think of a session as being one big sng, cbet relentlessly or you'll get run over in the higher buyins.

Tj

It's still quite early in the tourney, so no specific reads. Also now that I'm 6-tabling I find getting good reads a bit more challenging until the numbers are cut down a bit. Does anyone who multi-tables have some advice on getting reads?