Any getting away from QQ, level 3, 2x starting stack?

[DoanDiggy]

I was building a nice stack (nearly double my starting stack) in level 3 of a big tourney when this hand happened:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $3.00+$0.30 Tournament, 25/50 Blinds (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP3 (t4105)
CO (t1390)
Button (t1560)
SB (t2795)
BB (t4290)
UTG (t1180)
UTG+1 (t1665)
Hero (MP1) (t2955)
MP2 (t3690)

Hero's M: 39.40

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Q, Q
2 folds, Hero raises to t150, MP2 calls t150, 5 folds

Flop: (t375) 5, J, 7 (2 players)
Hero bets t300, MP2 raises to t600, Hero raises to t1800, MP2 raises to t3540 (All-In), Hero calls t1005 (All-In)

The way I played this hand, I'm potentially stacking off to AA, KK, JJJ, 777, or 555. Being that both of us are this deep early in the tourney, is there ever the possibility of folding QQ here? Obviously, once I made the 1800 chip raise, I'm not getting away from it. Was that too aggressive? I just felt that a lot of times here, I'm up against AJ, or hell, even KJ, QJ, JT, TT, 99, 88, a total bluff, etc. (you never know in these low stakes tournaments).

It just seems like a shame to lose such a nice stack on a cooler here. Is there any getting away from the hand postflop considering the preflop action? What if we had gotten in a raising battle preflop? Is there any folding QQ at this stage?

[drmcboy]

this is fine, in addition to the hands you list there are lots of draws he can have.

if you want a real discussion, start without results.

[sinister1]

I just felt that a lot of times here, I'm up against AJ, or hell, even KJ, QJ, JT, TT, 99, 88, a total bluff, etc. (you never know in these low stakes tournaments).

This is absolutely right so getting your chips in is a must. Overpairs are gold in low stakes b/c so many players do not fold top pair or worse. You are missing a lot of value if you start putting low stakes donks on tight hand ranges that beat you.

[DoanDiggy]

this is fine, in addition to the hands you list there are lots of draws he can have.

if you want a real discussion, start without results.

I hadn't even considered all of the drawing hands he might have, so it really looks like I'm well ahead of a reasonable range here, so not shipping it in would certainly be a mistake as you both have indicated.

I have removed the results, sorry about that. I'm still curious, though, with 40M at level 3 against a bigger stack, we're never folding QQ preflop, and postflop we're never folding it on a non-A, non-K flop?

[chardrian]

flop minraises = you're toast or he's toast. In either case reraising doesn't accomplish much.

[sinister1]

Yes, folding QQ at these stakes is typically -EV because players overvalue so many worse hands. The only time it is conceivable to fold QQ preflop or on a flop of all unders (as long as it is not super coordinated) is if there is a huge amount of action in front of you or behind you (after you acted) and those situations are rare. Here are a couple examples:

UTG raises big, get reraised, and then some mp player ships over for a big amount you can fold QQ preflop. If the flop is something like 7d8d9d and you cbet (with no Qd), and then a player behind you shoves and is called you might consider folding.

Preflop: If people have AA or KK that is just unlucky and really will not happen nearly as much as the times they have 22-JJ, AK, and other assorted hands.

Postflop: If people have sets or AA/KK that is just unlucky and really will not happen nearly as much as the times they have top pair, a draw, a bluff, middle pair or AK that they just cannot fold.

[DoanDiggy]

flop minraises = you're toast or he's toast. In either case reraising doesn't accomplish much.

So just shove straight out? I thought a minraise here by opp. might be a donkish way to chase out a bluff. Obviously, my 3bet was badly sized, but mightn't it make sense to 3bet small enough here that it looks like I might fold to a shove? I would just hate to outright shove and miss the chance at a bluff-catcher's stack.

[DoanDiggy]

Yes, folding QQ at these stakes is typically -EV because players overvalue so many worse hands. The only time it is conceivable to fold QQ preflop or on a flop of all unders (as long as it is not super coordinated) is if there is a huge amount of action in front of you or behind you (after you acted) and those situations are rare. Here are a couple examples:

UTG raises big, get reraised, and then some mp player ships over for a big amount you can fold QQ preflop. If the flop is something like 7d8d9d and you cbet (with no Qd), and then a player behind you shoves and is called you might consider folding.

Preflop: If people have AA or KK that is just unlucky and really will not happen nearly as much as the times they have 22-JJ, AK, and other assorted hands.

Postflop: If people have sets or AA/KK that is just unlucky and really will not happen nearly as much as the times they have top pair, a draw, a bluff, middle pair or AK that they just cannot fold.

Thanks for these examples, that helps a lot. I had read that we're never folding AA or KK and almost never QQ, so it's nice to see some examples of when we might, mostly so that we know when NOT to fold QQ.

What about the tougher spot of getting flat-called with QQ and then an uncoordinated flop has an A or a K on it? (I guess the same holds for KK with A, although that obviously happens less often.) This is always a tough spot for me, so what is the advice in position (given a check, a bet, and a shove) and out of position? How does this change on a more coordinated flop?

Obviously, if the flop comes like AKJ and we have QQ, it might be a good idea to slow down....

[fjuanl]

flop minraises = you're toast or he's toast. In either case reraising doesn't accomplish much.

At a 3.30 theres no way anyones folding Jx. Also its not a wa/wb situation if villian has a flushdraw.

[drmcboy]

I'm assuming Char is saying he doesn't think people min raise with draws, just air or big hands.

I don't agree so like you I'm just going to get it in now, no guessing for us later, no scare cards killing our action.

[chardrian]

No - I think people will minraise draws. But shoving isn't getting them to fold.

The four basic hand types we are up against are:
1) a hand that dominates us - it doesn't matter what we do here since we are toast.
2) a hand we dominate that we don't want to fold (e.g. TJ, JQ, air) - raising is our worst play because we aren't letting them bluff more off into us
3) a huge draw (e.g. AcXc) - raising simply puts us in a race
4) a hand we dominate that has some outs (e.g. JK or AJ) but won't fold - this is really the only scenario where we want to raise since we would get in ahead.

I don't think a shove is bad here if dominated hands will call (e.g. TJ or JQ). But I generally call here because I don't want the hands we dominate to fold. I don't care that much about giving 5 outs a free card (the AJ type hands). And I am comfortable enough playing postflop that I can re-evaluate a club or an A turn.

[drmcboy]

5) straight draws/gutter pair combos

6) FDs without over

but I think you get called here all the time by Jx in a $3 tourney so that's really where we disagree.

[chardrian]

I include fds w/out overs in my #4.

I haven't played a $3 tourney in a while so maybe players there go nutso with hands like 9T here but in general most crappy players call with crappy gutterball hands rather than raise them.

And yeah - like i said I see nothing wrong with shoving. It might be more stylistic than arguing about optimal here.