Folding AQ

[baudib]

I know there are people who don't play AQ and are very successful...I think I am on the verge of joining the ranks.

I just can't quite get there tho....Is it possibly EV+ to fold a hand this strong?

Folding to a raise and a reraise, I can certainly understand. But if I'm faced with a standard raise from MP, then a call on the button, and I have AQ in the BB...it's a must-call, no?

The thing is...I have run into such bad luck with the hand that I don't feel good playing it. This is either something I have to overcome, and learn to play it the right way, or simply stop playing it. Of course, there are times when I have no problem playing it...it's the in-between times that give me the problem.

To me, the problem with AQ is just like the problem with AK...you're going to miss most of the time...And when you hit the flop, you're not getting paid off by JJ. The problem with AQ is worse because you have to worry about AK if the ace hits...you have to worry about more overpairs if the Q hits.

any help appreciated.

[drmcboy]

But if I'm faced with a standard raise from MP, then a call on the button, and I have AQ in the BB...it's a must-call, no?

no although it's a 3 bet pretty often

Read professional NLHE, stack to pot ratios really helped me think about hand values relative to blind sizes.

The problem with AQ is worse because you have to worry

If you're going to hit your hand and worry it's not a bad thing to fold it. However, given you have another thread about how people play bad, you may be worrying too much.

[bigspenda73]

NEVER FOLD...NEVAR SURRENDER:

opened this thread as I was playing this hand in a 180man, they never ever fold PF, so there is a lot more value than most would think in shipping AQ.

MP2 (t2630)
Hero (MP3) (t2335)
CO (t4945)
Button (t2275)
SB (t1165)
BB (t2495)
UTG (t4875)
UTG+1 (t1775)
MP1 (t4800)

Hero's M: 10.38

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with A, Q
1 fold, UTG+1 calls t150, 1 fold, MP2 raises to t600, Hero raises to t2335 (All-In), 5 folds, MP2 calls t1735

Flop: (t5045) 10, Q, 3 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: (t5045) 5 (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: (t5045) 8 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: t5045

Results in white below:
MP2 had J, A (high card, Ace).
Hero had A, Q (one pair, Queens).
Outcome: Hero won t5045

[CorbinDallas]

deciding to never play AQ is bad. what's the action in front of you... are they loose, tight, weak, maniacs... are they likely to raise in EP with weaker hands than your AQ... if you raise with it and get a caller do you have reads that this guy flats with AK, AA, KK, QQ, A5s.

are there situations to fold AQ pre or post flop... sure. are there situations to get it all in on a Q high flop... yep.

[ihategnomes]

deciding to never play AQ is bad. what's the action in front of you... are they loose, tight, weak, maniacs

QFT.
Making blanket decisions in poker tends to be a leak. There is times when I insta-fold AQ and there is times when I move over the top with it.

[mcatdog]

I know there are people who don't play AQ and are very successful.

No there aren't.

[bigspenda73]

I know there are people who don't play AQ and are very successful.

No there aren't.

DOYLE BRUNSON YO

[ihategnomes]

Except the time he stacked off with it against AA, then reciting why he never plays that hand on the TVs.

[thnwkd]

I know there are people who don't play AQ and are very successful...I think I am on the verge of joining the ranks.

I just can't quite get there tho....Is it possibly EV+ to fold a hand this strong?

Folding to a raise and a reraise, I can certainly understand. But if I'm faced with a standard raise from MP, then a call on the button, and I have AQ in the BB...it's a must-call, no?

The thing is...I have run into such bad luck with the hand that I don't feel good playing it. This is either something I have to overcome, and learn to play it the right way, or simply stop playing it. Of course, there are times when I have no problem playing it...it's the in-between times that give me the problem.

To me, the problem with AQ is just like the problem with AK...you're going to miss most of the time...And when you hit the flop, you're not getting paid off by JJ. The problem with AQ is worse because you have to worry about AK if the ace hits...you have to worry about more overpairs if the Q hits.

any help appreciated.

Assign villain a range and act accordingly? Its all situational, but just open folding a hand because u don't know how to play it is not a good reason.

[chardrian]

I know there are people who don't play AQ and are very successful.

No there aren't.

I know some who just openfold it now from EP in the early stages of tourneys.

[d0zer]

I watched a CR vid ... the one about 20-tabling 200NL FR, and the coach advocated folding AQo UTG.


But in a tourney when yer M starts to get really low, AQ looks like da nuts!

[baudib]

Chardrian: I thought you had talked about not playing AQ here before, maybe I'm wrong.

[chardrian]

No, I loves my AQ.

[Sprayed]

I know there are people who don't play AQ and are very successful.

No there aren't.

I know some who just openfold it now from EP in the early stages of tourneys.

Sometimes I do that when the table is playing too loose. In STTs, 180s, and 45 turbos, that is usually my standard play.

[baudib]

OK well I've decided to not play so scared with my AQ. I am folding KQ and Ax crap in early/mid positions most of the time.

I can't find the hand history, but in a rebuy last night, I raised AQ in MP, got pushed over by two huge stacks, and quickly folded...they had AA and QQ.

I also got knocked out of two tourneys last night holding AQ...when I pushed shortstacked...of course I had the better hand each time but got beat by KQ and A8.

Here are two hands where I played AQ very strongly...one when I missed the flop and another when I flopped the nuts...I'm not sure either hand is optimal but I wanted to post for comment....

Full Tilt Poker Game #9018490317: $11,000 Guarantee (Rebuy) (68873706), Table 20 - 250/500 Ante 50 - No Limit Hold'em - 2:58:46 ET - 2008/11/17
Seat 1: rchabsfan (5,917)
Seat 2: baudib1 (11,842)
Seat 4: tyheroula (29,085)
Seat 5: codemonkey29 (11,260)
Seat 6: jubabean (49,770)
Seat 7: Sappertim (9,572)
Seat 8: candice825 (28,529)
Seat 9: marc80 (23,400)
rchabsfan antes 50
baudib1 antes 50
tyheroula antes 50
codemonkey29 antes 50
jubabean antes 50
Sappertim antes 50
candice825 antes 50
marc80 antes 50
tyheroula posts the big blind of 500
The button is in seat #2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to baudib1 [As Qs]
codemonkey29 raises to 1,900
jubabean folds
Sappertim has 15 seconds left to act
Sappertim folds
candice825 folds
marc80 folds
rchabsfan folds
baudib1 calls 1,900
tyheroula folds
*** FLOP *** [4h 8c 8s]
codemonkey29 bets 1,500
baudib1 raises to 4,500
marc80 is feeling happy
codemonkey29 has 15 seconds left to act
codemonkey29 folds
Uncalled bet of 3,000 returned to baudib1
baudib1 mucks
baudib1 wins the pot (7,700)
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 7,700 | Rake 0
Board: [4h 8c 8s]
Seat 1: rchabsfan folded before the Flop
Seat 2: baudib1 (button) collected (7,700), mucked
Seat 4: tyheroula (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 5: codemonkey29 folded on the Flop
Seat 6: jubabean folded before the Flop
Seat 7: Sappertim folded before the Flop
Seat 8: candice825 folded before the Flop
Seat 9: marc80 folded before the Flop

I almost folded given his UTG raise but decided to call given position. He was pretty tight but the flop but just looked weak...I was wondering if I was committing too many chips on a bluff, but I wasn't buying this.



Full Tilt Poker Game #8998822214: $15,000 Guarantee (Rebuy) (68725836), Table 58 - 400/800 Ante 100 - No Limit Hold'em - 1:19:07 ET - 2008/11/16
Seat 1: 420-888 (15,785)
Seat 2: bullyon (15,667)
Seat 3: Miss_dodo (6,635)
Seat 4: serge184 (41,888)
Seat 5: beland66 (22,460), is sitting out
Seat 6: youcallandover (29,892)
Seat 7: baudib1 (19,220)
Seat 8: howl9k (6,685)
Seat 9: terminator60 (41,571)
420-888 antes 100
bullyon antes 100
Miss_dodo antes 100
serge184 antes 100
beland66 antes 100
youcallandover antes 100
baudib1 antes 100
howl9k antes 100
terminator60 antes 100
Miss_dodo posts the small blind of 400
serge184 posts the big blind of 800
The button is in seat #2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to baudib1 [Ah Qh]
beland66 folds
youcallandover raises to 1,600
baudib1 calls 1,600
howl9k folds
terminator60 has 15 seconds left to act
terminator60 folds
420-888 folds
bullyon folds
Miss_dodo folds
serge184 calls 800
*** FLOP *** [Kc Tc Jd]
serge184 checks
youcallandover bets 3,000
baudib1 raises to 17,520, and is all in
serge184 has 15 seconds left to act
serge184 folds
youcallandover has 15 seconds left to act
youcallandover folds
Uncalled bet of 14,520 returned to baudib1

I guess it's never wrong to push when you're bet into with the nuts...but I regretted not getting more out of this hand....I felt villain was pretty tight, and was unlikely to bet into 3 people without a hand...I felt that AK/KQ/KJ/KT were definitely calling....maybe even QQ...I don't know what hand to put her on here except AJ. I also thought this might look like a push with a flush draw...anyway...I wondered if I should just made a donkraise and get it all in on the turn?

[baudib]

Actually...never mind...I guess there is no other way to play that flopped straight...there are too many scare cards...a J, T, K, A, Q, 9 or club could kill the action...I think I did the right thing.

[baudib]

Here's an AQ hand where i stacked KQ.

Full Tilt Poker Game #9019496474: $8,500 Guarantee (68893151), Table 45 - 25/50 - No Limit Hold'em - 5:25:33 ET - 2008/11/17
Seat 1: sndb (3,040), is sitting out
Seat 2: jbock034 (2,550)
Seat 3: mickaehl (2,010)
Seat 4: chit faced (6,070)
Seat 5: wcustudent87 (5,525)
Seat 6: salua (3,235)
Seat 7: baudib1 (4,920)
Seat 8: gui35 (1,725)
Seat 9: pogima (6,885)
jbock034 posts the small blind of 25
mickaehl posts the big blind of 50
The button is in seat #1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to baudib1 [Ad Qd]
chit faced calls 50
wcustudent87 folds
salua folds
baudib1 calls 50
gui35 raises to 200
pogima folds
sndb folds
jbock034 folds
mickaehl calls 150
chit faced calls 150
baudib1 calls 150
*** FLOP *** [Qs 4s Th]
mickaehl checks
chit faced checks
baudib1 checks
gui35 bets 825
mickaehl folds
chit faced folds
baudib1 raises to 3,550
gui35 calls 700, and is all in
baudib1 shows [Ad Qd]
gui35 shows [Ks Qh]
Uncalled bet of 2,025 returned to baudib1
*** TURN *** [Qs 4s Th] [2d]
*** RIVER *** [Qs 4s Th 2d] [3c]
baudib1 shows a pair of Queens
gui35 shows a pair of Queens
baudib1 wins the pot (3,875) with a pair of Queens
gui35 stands up
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 3,875 | Rake 0
Board: [Qs 4s Th 2d 3c]
Seat 1: sndb (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: jbock034 (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 3: mickaehl (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 4: chit faced folded on the Flop
Seat 5: wcustudent87 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 6: salua didn't bet (folded)
Seat 7: baudib1 showed [Ad Qd] and won (3,875) with a pair of Queens
Seat 8: gui35 showed [Ks Qh] and lost with a pair of Queens
Seat 9: pogima didn't bet (folded)

[drmcboy]

1) push pre

2) I'd usually either 3 bet or fold

3) raise pre, also easy shove when it gets back to you as played. Dead money is good.

seems like your plan with AQ is see a flop with whoever else wants to and then stack off with TP, that is probably why you don't like the hand. Do you play AK this way? I assume not. If you can't play it just like you'd play AK then just fold.

[baudib]

I don't understand this at all...In two of these hands I'm facing an EP raiser...in one case, on the button, on the second, still in early position myself. I still have 24 BBs, I don't think it's time to fold/push AQ over an EP raiser yet.

I can understand reraising/shoving back based on a lower M or based on raiser's position -- I'm all about shoving 87s in the BB vs. the button's five steal in a row. Playing AQ like AK seems problematic since the hands that call you 90% percent of the time are going to be pairs or AK...AK is only dominated by two hands, whereas AQ is dominated by 4.

In the final hand...the blinds are very small and I'm in early position. Had I opened, I would have raised to $150 or $200, but I didn't like the early limper. Given the action, check to the raiser, everyone else folds, it was an easy choice to put him all-in.

[drmcboy]

Don't plan around not losing to top 2.5% hands, plan to win money from the other ~20% people play regularly vs a raise.

You made a post about having trouble playing AQ. You went so far as to mention the idea that you should just "not play" AQ. That should convince you it's time to consider that all these assumptions/ideas you list are not doing you any favors. If you aren't willing to consider why you get into bad spots with it you're going to keep having issues.

The idea that '90%' of the time when you get called it's by AK or a PP is especially bad. Run some numbers on this, it should help.


How would you play AK in hand 1? If not the same, what has changed?

[baudib]

Ok...let me ask then, how would you play JJ/TT in those spots? What about AJ?

[baudib]

Is this better? Got pushed over by a better hand and won the flip.

Full Tilt Poker Game #9035674010: $17,000 Guarantee (69013555), Table 63 - 200/400 Ante 50 - No Limit Hold'em - 2:58:23 ET - 2008/11/18
Seat 1: tinymonstar (16,938)
Seat 2: zamyley (15,775)
Seat 3: baudib1 (24,627)
Seat 4: Ihaz2cardz (5,865)
Seat 5: DooDoo703 (13,224)
Seat 6: BUTTABEZI (11,630)
Seat 7: goodflop2day (6,880)
Seat 8: aggi3guy (11,370)
Seat 9: SSV (13,567)
tinymonstar antes 50
zamyley antes 50
baudib1 antes 50
Ihaz2cardz antes 50
DooDoo703 antes 50
BUTTABEZI antes 50
goodflop2day antes 50
aggi3guy antes 50
SSV antes 50
BUTTABEZI posts the small blind of 200
goodflop2day posts the big blind of 400
The button is in seat #5
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to baudib1 [Qc As]
baudib1: nh
baudib1: you had me
DooDoo703: ty
aggi3guy folds
SSV folds
tinymonstar folds
zamyley calls 400
baudib1: 88
baudib1 raises to 1,600
Ihaz2cardz folds
DooDoo703 folds
BUTTABEZI folds
goodflop2day raises to 6,830, and is all in
zamyley folds
baudib1 calls 5,230
goodflop2day shows [7d 7s]
baudib1 shows [Qc As]
*** FLOP *** [8h 3h Ah]
*** TURN *** [8h 3h Ah] [4h]
*** RIVER *** [8h 3h Ah 4h] [Ad]
goodflop2day shows two pair, Aces and Sevens
baudib1 shows three of a kind, Aces
baudib1 wins the pot (14,710) with three of a kind, Aces
goodflop2day stands up
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 14,710 | Rake 0
Board: [8h 3h Ah 4h Ad]
Seat 1: tinymonstar folded before the Flop
Seat 2: zamyley folded before the Flop
Seat 3: baudib1 showed [Qc As] and won (14,710) with three of a kind, Aces
Seat 4: Ihaz2cardz folded before the Flop
Seat 5: DooDoo703 (button) folded before the Flop
Seat 6: BUTTABEZI (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 7: goodflop2day (big blind) showed [7d 7s] and lost with two pair, Aces and Sevens
Seat 8: aggi3guy folded before the Flop
Seat 9: SSV folded before the Flop

[baudib]

Here's more AQ hands:

On this first one, I felt a had a ton of FE based on my table image and might actually get him to lay down a medium pocket pair. As it turned out, I had him crushed -- he had AT and later said he knew I wasn't reraising light.


Full Tilt Poker Game #9036152602: $17,000 Guarantee (69013555), Table 63 - 600/1200 Ante 150 - No Limit Hold'em - 3:59:23 ET - 2008/11/18
Seat 1: tinymonstar (9,447)
Seat 2: zamyley (34,050)
Seat 3: baudib1 (24,576)
Seat 4: razor012373 (17,758)
Seat 5: Carson515 (29,678)
Seat 6: Marticus4 (16,022)
Seat 7: azelkind (12,632)
Seat 8: aggi3guy (43,447)
Seat 9: Plutko78 (16,742)
tinymonstar antes 150
zamyley antes 150
baudib1 antes 150
razor012373 antes 150
Carson515 antes 150
Marticus4 antes 150
azelkind antes 150
aggi3guy antes 150
Plutko78 antes 150
zamyley posts the small blind of 600
baudib1 posts the big blind of 1,200
The button is in seat #1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to baudib1 [Qd As]
razor012373 folds
Carson515 folds
Marticus4 folds
azelkind folds
aggi3guy raises to 3,200
Plutko78 folds
tinymonstar folds
zamyley folds
baudib1 raises to 24,426, and is all in
aggi3guy has 15 seconds left to act
aggi3guy: wow
aggi3guy: gb
aggi3guy: AT
aggi3guy folds
Uncalled bet of 21,226 returned to baudib1

This was the complete opposite, if I was in the BB I would have ended up calling shortstack push here...but I'm UTG and we're right on the bubble, I open fold. Close call.

Full Tilt Poker Game #9036030677: $23,000 KO Guarantee (68214087), Table 42 - 600/1200 Ante 150 - No Limit Hold'em - 3:42:39 ET - 2008/11/18
fhatthewuckever: ok
Seat 2: kingpin023 (28,469)
Seat 3: BayviewPoker (9,896)
Seat 4: fhatthewuckever (36,733)
Seat 5: xxxpokerxxx7 (12,550), is sitting out
Seat 6: christian c (43,580)
Seat 7: seacucumber (14,971)
Seat 8: baudib1 (20,247)
Seat 9: xGameSetMatchx (26,337)
kingpin023 antes 150
BayviewPoker antes 150
fhatthewuckever antes 150
xxxpokerxxx7 antes 150
christian c antes 150
seacucumber antes 150
baudib1 antes 150
xGameSetMatchx antes 150
christian c posts the small blind of 600
seacucumber posts the big blind of 1,200
The button is in seat #5
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to baudib1 [Ah Qd]
BayviewPoker: at least aces
baudib1 folds
xGameSetMatchx folds
kingpin023 folds
BayviewPoker has 15 seconds left to act
BayviewPoker raises to 9,746, and is all in
fhatthewuckever folds
xxxpokerxxx7 folds
christian c folds
seacucumber has 15 seconds left to act
seacucumber folds
Uncalled bet of 8,546 returned to BayviewPoker
BayviewPoker mucks
BayviewPoker wins the pot (4,200)
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 4,200 | Rake 0
Seat 2: kingpin023 folded before the Flop
Seat 3: BayviewPoker collected (4,200), mucked
Seat 4: fhatthewuckever folded before the Flop
Seat 5: xxxpokerxxx7 (button) folded before the Flop
Seat 6: christian c (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 7: seacucumber (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 8: baudib1 folded before the Flop
Seat 9: xGameSetMatchx folded before the Flop

[drmcboy]

look fine except raise the last one. low blinds at a tough table I will sometimes fold AQo, here you have to raise and call a shove if it happens. it's chip up time yo!

[Fjaman]

I usually play AQ liberally, if iget rerasised early in a tourney when the stacks are deep i´ll likely lay it down but when the stacks dips to <10 its the nuts from almost any position

[baudib]

It's funny, I finished fourth in the $17,000 guarantee this morning and I must have had AQ 10 times. Lost only one hand with it, getting sucked out on by KQ while I sucked out on KK.

Here are some AQ pushes for discussion:

1. Villain is stealing constantly, using stupid bet sizes with really stupid hands to push the table around. This is standard, I assume, as Ax is near the top of his raising range here:


Full Tilt Poker Game #9156749935: $17,000 Guarantee (69909828), Table 18 - 150/300 Ante 25 - No Limit Hold'em - 2:53:31 ET - 2008/11/25
Seat 1: SoftBallin25 (8,840)
Seat 2: baudib1 (10,705)
Seat 3: BMFLB (1,865)
Seat 4: yosemite57 (9,193)
Seat 5: BeL0WY0uRsELf (15,437)
Seat 6: Baja Cali (22,098)
Seat 7: soda58 (10,713)
Seat 8: King Chip Monk (3,479)
Seat 9: SkillForLuck (15,640)
SoftBallin25 antes 25
baudib1 antes 25
BMFLB antes 25
yosemite57 antes 25
BeL0WY0uRsELf antes 25
Baja Cali antes 25
soda58 antes 25
King Chip Monk antes 25
SkillForLuck antes 25
baudib1 posts the small blind of 150
BMFLB posts the big blind of 300
The button is in seat #1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to baudib1 [As Qc]
yosemite57 folds
BeL0WY0uRsELf has 15 seconds left to act
BeL0WY0uRsELf raises to 789
Baja Cali folds
soda58 folds
King Chip Monk folds
SkillForLuck folds
SoftBallin25 folds
baudib1 raises to 10,680, and is all in

2. On the bubble, my image is rock tight. The only hands I had shown down here were literally AA and AK. I second-guessed myself here because I'm not getting value and I'm committing too much of my stack when I can just raise and have position vs. a caller.


Full Tilt Poker Game #9157234222: $17,000 Guarantee (69909828), Table 18 - 600/1200 Ante 150 - No Limit Hold'em - 3:53:55 ET - 2008/11/25
Seat 1: PManning420 (5,109)
Seat 2: baudib1 (39,186)
Seat 3: flycheckmate (14,010)
Seat 4: yosemite57 (12,173)
Seat 5: BeL0WY0uRsELf (15,530)
Seat 6: kcher (11,621)
Seat 7: soda58 (12,126)
Seat 8: McSaltD (13,211)
Seat 9: SkillForLuck (33,804)
PManning420 antes 150
baudib1 antes 150
flycheckmate antes 150
yosemite57 antes 150
BeL0WY0uRsELf antes 150
kcher antes 150
soda58 antes 150
McSaltD antes 150
SkillForLuck antes 150
flycheckmate posts the small blind of 600
yosemite57 posts the big blind of 1,200
The button is in seat #2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to baudib1 [Qs Ad]
BeL0WY0uRsELf folds
kcher folds
soda58 folds
McSaltD folds
SkillForLuck folds
PManning420 has 15 seconds left to act
PManning420 is sitting out
PManning420 has timed out
PManning420 folds
baudib1 raises to 39,036, and is all in

3. Villain is a reasonably decent player from what I've seen so far. My stack is big enough that I don't want to commit too much when I'm likely behind preflop.

Flopping four-flush on a low board, I'm never letting go of this when I figure to have 12-15 outs. Does going for the check-raise give me more FE or less, by giving villain pot odds to call?



Full Tilt Poker Game #9157594577: $17,000 Guarantee (69909828), Table 51 - 1500/3000 Ante 400 - No Limit Hold'em - 4:45:13 ET - 2008/11/25
Seat 1: tjeutje (55,478)
Seat 3: Ddayy (34,472)
Seat 4: Law of Averages (155,394)
Seat 5: baudib1 (67,413)
Seat 6: BeL0WY0uRsELf (87,254)
Seat 7: fly2188 (127,239)
Seat 8: HighRising (119,981)
Seat 9: bigtimpin420 (63,974)
tjeutje antes 400
Ddayy antes 400
Law of Averages antes 400
baudib1 antes 400
BeL0WY0uRsELf antes 400
fly2188 antes 400
HighRising antes 400
bigtimpin420 antes 400
baudib1 posts the small blind of 1,500
BeL0WY0uRsELf posts the big blind of 3,000
The button is in seat #4
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to baudib1 [Ac Qc]
fly2188 folds
HighRising has 15 seconds left to act
HighRising raises to 8,500
bigtimpin420 folds
tjeutje folds
Ddayy folds
Law of Averages folds
baudib1 calls 7,000
BeL0WY0uRsELf folds
*** FLOP *** [Th 5c 2c]
baudib1 checks
HighRising bets 11,000
baudib1 raises to 58,513, and is all in