Stack Size & Marginal Decisions

[HiLo]

I was hoping someone could help me clarify my current thinking on this because I think it is an important concept I need to get absolutely solid if I am to progress my MTT game.

Imagine a hypothetical situation in the middle stages of an MTT where I have open raised with A4s from EP (I had my reasons!) and a guy behind me shoves in his remaining 10bb and it folds back round to me. I am getting slightly better than 2:1 to call and I think I am ~35% against his likely range. In other words in terms of pure chip EV this is a marginal call.

My thinking currently goes like this:

Situation 1.
I am one of the chip leaders with a 150bb stack. My table image has been tight. If I call my image will be trashed but I have plenty of chips so I can afford to tighten up for a while. Calling and losing hardly dents my chipstack.
Decision: Easy call

Situation 2.
I have a below average chipstack of about 17bb remaining after my opening raise. There is still some way to go in this tourney. The blinds are about to go up and if I fold here I am going to be in push-fold mode very soon. I can't afford to pass up slightly +EV chances here. I need to get chipped up if I am going to go deep.
Decision: Grit my teeth and call.

Situation 3.
I have a slightly better than average chipstack of 28bb remaining after my opening raise. There is still some way to go, but I am not desperate yet. With my stack size and the way the table is playing, I am soon going to be in a position where I am relying heavily on resteals to progress. I don't want to trash my image here and I have enough chips to pass this one up.
Decision: Fold.

Thoughts?

[Sprayed]

I believe that before you play a hand, you need to know what you are going to do if someone reraises or shoves over. You should already have a plan before you raise this hand.

As for each scenario, with a 150bb stack and the blinds are worth stealing, raising is fine. If getting or better than 2-1 then you have to call.

As the blinds get big, I normally go by M instead of bbs. This gives me a better understanding as to whether I can raise fold or not. If I'm 10M, and I would think that probably with below 17bb stack that you are 10M, then I don't raise this hand in fear of the shorties left to act shoving over my raise. No more raise folding when 10M.

Depending upon M, you can raise to steal in situation 3 and fold if you want if they shove over. Anytime you are getting better than 2-1 you should call though.

[HiLo]

As the blinds get big, I normally go by M instead of bbs. This gives me a better understanding as to whether I can raise fold or not. If I'm 10M, and I would think that probably with below 17bb stack that you are 10M, then I don't raise this hand in fear of the shorties left to act shoving over my raise. No more raise folding when 10M.

For sake of argument let's assume M=11 prior to the opening raise in situation 2. So it will be less than 10 after raise-folding, and significantly less when the blinds increase.

Depending upon M, you can raise to steal in situation 3 and fold if you want if they shove over. Anytime you are getting better than 2-1 you should call though.

Just in situation 3 or in all situations?

[Sprayed]

M is a little more important when antes come into play. 2-1 is normally a must call with any hand that you raised with and facing a shove. There are times when you can fold. But, when you have around 10M (10M is a rough number and when 12M or so I would lean to 10M thinking) you shouldn't be raise folding much. When you raise with a 10M stack, you will be getting odds to call and pot committed. Making it normally not profitable to raise fold when 10M.

[mcatdog]

Actually, I don't think this concept is very important at all. I am of the opinion that you should almost always just call if you're getting the right pot odds and fold if you're not getting them. Figuring out what people's ranges are is hard enough work already. I just try to make +EV plays; the idea of having "enough chips" or being "desperate" is not a part of my thought process. Your stack size can change so quickly that it just seems useless to try this hard to stay at a given number of BBs.

Also, I would think that if you raise from EP and then fold to a 10 BB stack's shove, your image is already going to be trashed at least as bad as it would be if you called and showed down A4s. If your image was that important to you, you should have thought of that before you raised A4s from EP with short stacks behind you.

[HiLo]

Actually, I don't think this concept is very important at all. I am of the opinion that you should almost always just call if you're getting the right pot odds and fold if you're not getting them. Figuring out what people's ranges are is hard enough work already. I just try to make +EV plays; the idea of having "enough chips" or being "desperate" is not a part of my thought process. Your stack size can change so quickly that it just seems useless to try this hard to stay at a given number of BBs.

I understand what you are saying here, but what I was really talikng about is those ultra thin EV decisions, which I come across a lot (perhaps we come across them less often as we get better at narrowing opp's ranges). My thinking has been that if the chip EV on the call is marginal but I am an underdog to win the hand, then I am giving up some EV in the tournament as a whole if calling and losing leaves me in a position where I can't take advantage of table conditions by no longer having a stack size that will allow me to resteal and make other +EV plays in the future that you can only make with a bigger stack. If I get short I am only relying on flips etc, and am going to need to get good cards.

Also, I would think that if you raise from EP and then fold to a 10 BB stack's shove, your image is already going to be trashed at least as bad as it would be if you called and showed down A4s.

hmmm interesting point, and one I have considered. I was thinking along the lines of people thinking:
a) This guy has been playing tight.
b) Now he raise-folded from EP. He must be a total nit, doesn't like getting his stack in without the nuts.
c) (2 orbits later ) Now this nit has shoved his over my marginal hand, he must have a monster. I fold.

Would you say this assumption is wrong, and not how opp's think?

I have always tended to think that people's perception of your table image is based more on what hands they have seen you show down than remembering times you folded (unless the fold is ridiculous), as it gives them a graphic image that sticks out in their mind more. No?

[HiLo]

I'm now starting to wonder if my preoccupation with this kind of situation would be somewhat lessened if I was running good, as I used to pretty much snap call if I thought the odds were there, as mcat has suggested!

[mcatdog]

I understand what you are saying here, but what I was really talikng about is those ultra thin EV decisions, which I come across a lot

Could that be because you raise weak hands from EP a lot with short stacks behind you? That should tell you that these raises are usually -EV. It's not just running bad I'm afraid.

My thinking has been that if the chip EV on the call is marginal but I am an underdog to win the hand, then I am giving up some EV in the tournament as a whole if calling and losing leaves me in a position where I can't take advantage of table conditions by no longer having a stack size that will allow me to resteal and make other +EV plays in the future that you can only make with a bigger stack. If I get short I am only relying on flips etc, and am going to need to get good cards.

Yes, if you have 20 BB you have plays available that aren't available to a 10 BB stack, but the reverse is also true. With 10 BB you can profitably open shove a wide range of hands that would have to be open-folded with 20 BB. On the whole there's little difference unless there's some really bizarre dynamics going on at your table.

[HiLo]

I understand what you are saying here, but what I was really talikng about is those ultra thin EV decisions, which I come across a lot

Could that be because you raise weak hands from EP a lot with short stacks behind you?

I knew this would be assumed after I posted this situation. This was based on a hand from a tourney I played last night. The table was playing quite aggro to my right with many pots 3 bet by the time they reached me in LP. These guys didn't seem to be defending their blinds against raises from EP though and as I had played very few hands, and there was only 1 short stack at the table I figured this could be a spot to try something unusual from EP. This is not a standard play for me. Perhaps I should not have used it as my example hand, as it certainly seems to have confused things.

I guess the time I usually run into these marginal spots is after raising something like KTo from LP and the button or one of the blinds puts me all in or shoves himself, and I put him on a range of 88+, suited broadways AJ+..... Perhaps I raise too wide in LP when there are shorties or aggro big stacks left to act? This is definitely something I will address if you think that these spots should be somewhat rarer that they seem to be for me.

edit: thinking about, it perhaps I am making mistakes in my range estimates, and the situation is more profitable than I am thinking?

[HiLo]

if you have 20 BB you have plays available that aren't available to a 10 BB stack, but the reverse is also true. With 10 BB you can profitably open shove a wide range of hands that would have to be open-folded with 20 BB. On the whole there's little difference unless there's some really bizarre dynamics going on at your table.

I hadn't thought of it like this. You make a good point, thanks!

[Outlaw]

Situation 1.
I am one of the chip leaders with a 150bb stack. My table image has been tight. If I call my image will be trashed but I have plenty of chips so I can afford to tighten up for a while. Calling and losing hardly dents my chipstack.
Decision: Easy call- Correct, however, I would not be raising this kind of junk hand with such a comfortable stack. Depending on the number of desparate people on the table, I would defintely tighten up big time.

Situation 2.
I have a below average chipstack of about 17bb remaining after my opening raise. There is still some way to go in this tourney. The blinds are about to go up and if I fold here I am going to be in push-fold mode very soon. I can't afford to pass up slightly +EV chances here. I need to get chipped up if I am going to go deep.
Decision: Grit my teeth and call.- You would have open shoved here so there's no decision.

Situation 3.
I have a slightly better than average chipstack of 28bb remaining after my opening raise. There is still some way to go, but I am not desperate yet. With my stack size and the way the table is playing, I am soon going to be in a position where I am relying heavily on resteals to progress. I don't want to trash my image here and I have enough chips to pass this one up.
Decision: Fold.- Easy call, you need chips.. this is a good start. You lose you've got 18BBs and can start shoving to get back in it. You win, you have about 50BBs, not full utility yet.. but a much more comfortable position.

Thoughts?