Shove over short stack all in and a flat call?

[Danh Bai]

What do you think of a shove here? Short stack has been pushing repeatedly without getting called. Would button risk his whole stack after just calling the small all-in?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $3.00+$0.40 Tournament, 75/150 Blinds (7 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (UTG) (t2785)
MP1 (t1500)
MP2 (t815)
CO (t455)
Button (t3307)
SB (t2175)
BB (t2463)

Hero's M: 12.38

Preflop: Hero is UTG with ,
Hero calls t150, 2 folds, CO raises to t455 (All-In), Button calls t455, 2 folds, [color=#CC3333]Hero ??

[gingerwizard]

Call and try to check it down. Shoving into big stack here is just plain unnecessary IMO

[Nakamura]

If I'm going to play 88 here from an EP I like to raise it up pre-flop. In a limped pot you are going to be OOP and likely facing overs. Limping here seems kinda leaky.

As played I would probably just call and take it from there. If button has missed the flop he should just check it down.

[gingerwizard]

I think a raise here is risky because if called you're OOP, and not deep enough to make the disguise of a flopped set worth it.

The limp is ok as you know you'll call a short stack shove, you can pass to a big stack raise, and if the pot is limped you'll have position on the blinds. I don't limp if I have 1800 but at 2700+ It's my play.

[drmcboy]

it's close between raising and folding pre although I would probably raise in most situations. limping here puts you into all sorts of bad spots and given stack sizes I would not do it with any hand except AA if I felt everyone was too bad to notice how weird it was.

as played you should shove, this is pretty much the best case scenario after you limp. the problem with the 'he'll check it down' idea is most of the time you're the one with the best hand giving him free draws at you.

[flomo]

i piss alot of people off by not checking it down with more than 5 players still left

is it really that wrong?

[taipan168]

I would make it 400 preflop with your stack, calling a shove by MP1, MP2 and CO (and getting it AI on the flop if they flat call) and folding to a shove by anybody else.

As played, I agree with drmcboy, I would put the squeeze on Button and get HU against the shorty with heaps of dead chips in the pot.

[gingerwizard]

Mainly.

If you have a good hand, then ok. But if you have a small pair or some shit it's really bad. You fold out players who might draw to a hand that knocks the AI hand out. Remember when a player gets knocked out your $EV goes up. Which means betting gash and folding hands that might improve your $EV can be -$EV. Especially when you might be betting into someone who has something

[dsaxton]

Can people please stop using the term "+EV" like this? It's already been explained why showing that a play is "+EV" means absolutely nothing in itself. A play can be "+EV" and still be wrong, and the best possible play can actually be "-EV."

The reason is simply because the best play is the one that maximizes expectation, even if it's negative. A play could, in theory, have positive expectation and still be the worst.

[gingerwizard]

Yes indeed.

I should have said that in my opinion the play does not maximise expectation.