TT OOP vs flat call on A-high flop, 9p $1.20

[DoanDiggy]

I couldn't really figure any other line to play here. Maybe check/raising the turn makes sense. I'm really unsure about the river.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00+$0.20 Tournament, 15/30 Blinds (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Button (t1640)
SB (t1260)
BB (t2235)
Hero (UTG) (t2470)
MP (t1435)
CO (t4460)

Hero's M: 54.89

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 10, 10
Hero raises to t120, MP calls t120, 4 folds

Flop: (t285) 2, 7, A (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets t120, Hero calls t120

Turn: (t525) 9 (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets t90, Hero calls t90

River: (t705) 8 (2 players)
Hero bets t300, MP raises to t600, Hero ???

[taipan168]

C-bet the flop for 160-180 or so since you raised preflop.

As played, turn is fine and now check the river and hope that he makes a retarded small bet again which you can call without thinking. Don't give him a chance to make you put chips in the pot then wonder what to do when you get raised. Whenever you make a bet, you need to think about what you are trying to achieve with that bet. I am not sure what you are trying to achieve here given the line that both you and opp have taken on the flop and turn.

As you played the river, bleh, cry and fold I guess.

[DoanDiggy]

I would usually c-bet this flop, I'm not sure why I didn't here. On the river, I was trying to get value from any 9, 8, or 7. Unfortunately for me, I called the river.

Here's an even worse hand from the same game. I hate when I'm not quite short enough to justify shoving 99. The flop seems like an easy cbet (?), but my only bet left is all-in. Should I have flat-called or folded preflop instead of raising? And as played, why couldn't I make the sensible play and fold the river?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00+$0.20 Tournament, 50/100 Blinds (5 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG (t1940)
MP (t3580)
Hero (Button) (t2115)
SB (t2180)
BB (t3685)

Hero's M: 14.10

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9, 9
1 fold, MP raises to t300, Hero raises to t750, 2 folds, MP calls t450

Flop: (t1650) J, 5, A (2 players)
MP checks, Hero checks

Turn: (t1650) K (2 players)
MP checks, Hero checks

River: (t1650) 10 (2 players)
MP bets t600, Hero ???

[taipan168]

On the second hand, to me it is either fold or shove over rather than 3-betting like 35% of your stack. As you say, since the only reasonable bet on the flop is all-in, this is an indication that you should be shoving or folding preflop.

As to which to do, this is read dependent on how aggressive MP has been. However, the fact that MP has you covered makes me lean towards folding.

[DoanDiggy]

Good points all around. Clearly if I wasn't comfortable shoving this hand preflop, I should have just folded it. MP wasn't being overly aggressive, so he likely had 2 overs or a pair of some sort, maybe A8o at the very bottom of his range.

I was just now thinking that flat calling wouldn't actually be all that bad a lot of times, but then I remembered that based on what I had seen, SB and likely BB would almost certainly have come along with like 40-60%, so that's not really a good option here. A minraise is another possibility, but it's pretty donkish and then a c-bet is half my remaining stack. So I definitely should have folded.

[taipan168]

If you flat call, you basically turn your hand into 22 because you are playing for set value, and you don't have correct implied odds to play for set value. Whilst 99 has a little bit of overpair value, this needs to be weighed against the reverse implied odds if opp has a bigger pair.

Plus there is always the chance that one of the players still to act will squeeze you by shoving over, leaving you in a very difficult spot.

Something else, I think you may have some other leaks in your game which are not necessarily covered by the hands you post. I suggest you post a full tourney for comment - I would be happy to review a couple of tourneys when I get time.

[DoanDiggy]

Thanks a lot for the offer. I just posted a trimmed $0.25 MTT here if you don't mind skimming over that for me.

[gingerwizard]

Hey.

This advice may change after I read the other replies!

Firstly I lead out the flop for 190. This is not a KK on A high flop situation. You want to bet now and fold out hands like Jx,Qx,Kx that might catch a turn or river and make you hate your hand even more.

With the check on the flop I'd be tempted to raise for the same reason above. I don't fold here.

On the turn the pot is getting big so I check to keep it from spiraling out of control, and call his pitiful little bet. FWIW I can't understand this line from him.

On the river I'm never leading out now. The pot is large, you set yourself up to be stolen from, and his line (and yours) makes F-All sense. Lastly since he bet so small on the turn, he may only bet small again on the river which is what you want.

You need to think sometime why you are betting. I see no reason for you to bet this river other than your being afraid to check 3 streets.

[gingerwizard]

I would usually c-bet this flop, I'm not sure why I didn't here. On the river, I was trying to get value from any 9, 8, or 7. Unfortunately for me, I called the river.

Here's an even worse hand from the same game. I hate when I'm not quite short enough to justify shoving 99. The flop seems like an easy cbet (?), but my only bet left is all-in. Should I have flat-called or folded preflop instead of raising? And as played, why couldn't I make the sensible play and fold the river?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00+$0.20 Tournament, 50/100 Blinds (5 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG (t1940)
MP (t3580)
Hero (Button) (t2115)
SB (t2180)
BB (t3685)

Hero's M: 14.10

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9, 9
1 fold, MP raises to t300, Hero raises to t750, 2 folds, MP calls t450

Flop: (t1650) J, 5, A (2 players)
MP checks, Hero checks

Turn: (t1650) K (2 players)
MP checks, Hero checks

River: (t1650) 10 (2 players)
MP bets t600, Hero ???

On this hand I don't reraise preflop. It sounds nitty but I probably fold. Calling is bad because we don't have enough implied odds to play for sets and we've no initiative. Reraising is not so bad, but you have to shove the flop IMO which I think is too aggro at this stage. (By which I mean I think it puts me on the rail more often than I'd like).

As played, by the turn you seem to have given up. You can't reraise preflop and then check behind 2 streets, it's just weird and it screams "I hate this board!"

The river as you know is a fold. There is no such thing as a bluff call

[gingerwizard]

Having read Tai's posts the only difference is the possible preflop shove of 99. Personally (although I fold for the reasons I gave last time) I like the reraise more than a shove because it gives me a chance to dump it if I get 4 bet instead of being the guy who walked into QQ+, and because I can afford it. I just don't like shoving for nearly 20BBs with 99 to pick up 4, when I know I can fold and wait for better spots.

If I have 12BBs I shove this all day.

[taipan168]

Having read Tai's posts the only difference is the possible preflop shove of 99. Personally (although I fold for the reasons I gave last time) I like the reraise more than a shove because it gives me a chance to dump it if I get 4 bet instead of being the guy who walked into QQ+, and because I can afford it. I just don't like shoving for nearly 20BBs with 99 to pick up 4, when I know I can fold and wait for better spots.

If I have 12BBs I shove this all day.

Take your point that your preferred move is to fold, but I think it is very bad to 3-bet for 35% of your stack then fold to a shove.

[gingerwizard]

It sounds bad, but 35% doesn't even take us to 10BBs, and at least I'm still in the tourn. What's a 4bet shove range at these stakes? At 50NL I have AK in there sure, but this is QQ+ down here (with only 5 left. It's ATC for the first 10 hands!) almost always. Why even risk shoving 20BBs when we're sitting pretty now. Our edge is on or near the bubble and when the blinds are high. Even if a shove was +$EV, I don't think it is more +$EV than a reraise.

tbh I'm never reraising anyway. There was a good sticky by mcatdog in the mtts about middle pocket pairs in middle stages of mtts. I think it applies to this situation.

[taipan168]

Agree with you that my default play is to fold here due to stack sizes, I would need a very solid read that opp is a LAGG who will fold to a shove over to consider doing so.

[DoanDiggy]

Thanks a lot for all the comments. At the time when I was looking at 99 and the CO open, I was at a total loss for what to do. Shoving felt wrong and folding felt too nitty, and calling just seemed stupid. I thought that my raise in this situation had to look pretty strong and that a lot of time I'm taking down the blinds and the raise. At the least, I figured to be flatted by TT+, AJ+, and totally giving up on this board seemed like a reasonable play. Once again, though, I overestimated the abilities of someone who is holding KQ at these stakes.

I'm glad to know now that folding 99 here a lot of times is not all that bad.

Also, I posted another trimmed tourney, a 9-player SNG, if you'd rather check that out than a full MTT: http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...20-t79416.html