Interesting hand

[trilerian]

Well this came up today and had my heart pounding.


Villain 1 & 2 are both extremely loose aggressive, vp70 af5.0 after 25 hands.
Pretty sure I have villain 1 beat on the flop, villain 2 I have no idea and since he had position on me I was extremely hesitant on my call. Villain 1 I though either had a flush draw or under pp's, had watched him pull this move a couple of times with each. He liked to show his hands after everyone folded. Because Villain 2 didn't re-raise my raise or the 4-bet, I assumed no AK or high pp.


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00+$0.20 Tournament, 15/30 Blinds (5 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (MP) (t1380)
villain2 (Button) (t3090)
SB (t1575)
BB (t1300)
villain (UTG) (t6155)

Hero's M: 30.67

Preflop: Hero is MP with ,
villain raises to t60, Hero raises to t150, villain2 calls t150, 2 folds, villain raises to t240, Hero calls t90, villain2 calls t90

Flop: (t765) , , (3 players)
villain bets t1320, Hero calls t1140 (All-In), 1 fold

Turn: (t3045) (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: (t3045) (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: t3045

[drmcboy]

if that says 70% raise pre I would just shove over when it comes back on the flop. This isn't a good flop vs a sane player's 4 bet range but given you still think he can have a lot of hands on the flop you may as well just get it in pre and hope you get villain two's dead money.

[trilerian]

Oops, I meant vp70. Yeah, if the pr was 70 I would have shoved over pre.

[sammyfarha]

I'm not a very good player myself so don't put too much weight on what I'm going to say. I'm sure the vets will have a more enlightening analysis, but i will try my best to do mine. Here goes:

Firstly, this looks like a donkfest because it's only 15/30 and yet you are down to 5 players.

I like the reraise on the flop, but after the call and 4-bet, i would be very cautious, even if an A flops. On the flop, you have middle pair, facing an all in and one more person behind. I would fold in this spot. It's too early, and these are donkeys you're playing with (in my opinion), and you can catch a better position later on.

[drmcboy]

the point is if you aren't giving him credit for a big hand pre flop, why not move in then? most people will only 4 bet QQ+ and AK, so this is not a good flop for you. You end up in a bad spot - big pot, in between two people , you have no idea what they have. If you don't want to fold pre, shove.

[sammyfarha]

In addition, I'm calling the 4-bet because you only need to call 90 to win 585. However, don't forget that you still have the cold caller behind you and who knows what he will do. I think folding is also reasonable after the 4-bet.

[trilerian]

I called the min-raise 4-bet because these guys were, well they were something else. Against good players the 4-bet would have been higher, especially considering my 3-bet was a little light, and I would have laid down my hand. I did think about shoving over pre, but it seemed a little too risky. On the flop, I thought I was ahead, so I called.

[drmcboy]

give us a hand range for each guy.

[trilerian]

Villain1--99-JJ, A9o, A9s and any broadway. I put the A9 in there because first hand he called all in with it. I leave out QQ-AA because he didn't go all in, which he would have after my 3-bet.

Villain2 66-JJ and any broadway, I'm probably being a little generous with V2's range, more likely its 22-99 and any broadway.

[drmcboy]

you're a flip against both those ranges and most of the time you end up with a nice overlay when one fold

re villain 1, do you think he shoves the flop with 100% of his range pre flop?

[trilerian]

re villain 1, do you think he shoves the flop with 100% of his range pre flop?

Yes, any big hand he has been involved in, that wasn't all in pre, he shoved the flop.

[gingerwizard]

Wait a minute. Villain 1 is UTG, has 4-bet you, and you think he only has a draw or low PP when he puts you in on the flop? In fact you are pretty sure you have him beat?

How does villain 1 play QQ+?

I was always of the opinion that Laggy players still 4-bet tight, and that you're toast most of the time with this flop.

I can understand a reraise cos he's laggy, but when you're 4-bet do you still put him on a normal opening range? If your plan is to get all in 3-way with AQ after being 4-bet then this is a good flop for you, and time to get it in.

Personally I fold to the 4-bet and as played I fold the flop. I expected to be folded to or called pre. I know you said he'd pushed the flop with draws or pps, but had he 4-bet them?

[drmcboy]

re villain 1, do you think he shoves the flop with 100% of his range pre flop?

Yes, any big hand he has been involved in, that wasn't all in pre, he shoved the flop.

your line is OK, but when dealing with super crazy players I would rather just get it in now and not have to guess on the flop. If he's so bad he would lead out with 99 on this board with this action pre flop, he's plenty bad enough to call with worse As pre flop.

EDIT since ginger posted in the middle

[gingerwizard]

I know we're saying he's bad, but does he really 4 bet crap preflop? Even the worst aggro players I've seen at donk stakes 4-bet real tight, unless they're shoving.

Getting 4-bet and not shoved over here preflop, I'd be thinking he has a monster. If he 4bets Ax then fine shove over pre, but that's one hell of a read to have after 25 hands

[trilerian]

I can understand a reraise cos he's laggy, but when you're 4-bet do you still put him on a normal opening range? If your plan is to get all in 3-way with AQ after being 4-bet then this is a good flop for you, and time to get it in.

Personally I fold to the 4-bet and as played I fold the flop. I expected to be folded to or called pre. I know you said he'd pushed the flop with draws or pps, but had he 4-bet them?

Yes, hitting the flop I was going to bet. I will admit, I didn't like the K but wasn't worried about villain 1 having it, only villain 2 concerned me.

To the second, no he had not 4-bet anything yet, nobody yet had 3-bet him. I'm not saying he didn't have good cards, but he sure didn't need to go all in on the flop.

[drmcboy]

I edited for clarity.

I'm with you in theory, ginger. I am struggling with this hand because the play is so weird whatever they have

[trilerian]

It is weird, that is why I put "interesting hand" for the subject. I'll be honest with you, I have 3-bet AQ from late position before, got 4-bet and folded. Against most opp's I will lay down that hand when 4-bet against. But against this guy, I thought he didn't have QQ+, and was getting good odds to call the 4-bet. I figured I was a flip against him, and if I hit the flop I should be good to go. Opp turned over 10's.

Here is another hand against him later.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00+$0.20 Tournament, 50/100 Blinds (3 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (SB) (t3440)
BB (t3640)
villain (Button) (t6420)

Hero's M: 22.93

Preflop: Hero is SB with ,
villain calls t100, Hero calls t50, BB checks

Flop: (t300) , , (3 players)
Hero bets t200, 1 fold, villain raises to t400, Hero raises to t800, villain calls t400

Turn: (t1900) (2 players)
Hero bets t1000, villain calls t1000

River: (t3900) (2 players)
Hero bets t1540 (All-In), villain calls t1540

Total pot: t6980

Not abc poker here. 1: I should have raised pre, but was hoping to hide a good hand if I hit the flop. 2: My min-raise to his min-raise, I was hoping for a shove over on his part, didn't get it, so I figured I would try again on the turn with a 1/2 pot sized bet. Didn't get it there, so shove the river.

[drmcboy]

again, if he doesn't have QQ plus shoving over pre seems better to me. HU I could see your line this, but the other guy gets to call wheenver he flops a hand and fold whenever he doesn't. Also you're either going to get bluffed out a lot by V1 or have to call unpaired sometimes before V2 acts and be at risk from both.

[gingerwizard]

OP you said:

"But against this guy, I thought he didn't have QQ+, and was getting good odds to call the 4-bet. I figured I was a flip against him, and if I hit the flop I should be good to go."

That is a sic sic read after 25 hands. Figuring you're a flip against someone who 4 bets you with AQ, when you've not seen a 4 bet line from him before just seems plain clarevoiant.

You seem a little results orientated and are justifying the "read" using what he actually had. If you can actually read Opps that good after 25 hands, then you won't be playing the $1.20s for long, and are much better at internet poker than I am!

[fulksy]

i fold AQ to a 4 bet every time, like gingerwizard said i rarley see even terrible players 4 bet worse than AQ even with great odds to call i think your asking for trouble calling.

[trilerian]

OP you said:

"But against this guy, I thought he didn't have QQ+, and was getting good odds to call the 4-bet. I figured I was a flip against him, and if I hit the flop I should be good to go."

That is a sic sic read after 25 hands. Figuring you're a flip against someone who 4 bets you with AQ, when you've not seen a 4 bet line from him before just seems plain clarevoiant.

You seem a little results orientated and are justifying the "read" using what he actually had. If you can actually read Opps that good after 25 hands, then you won't be playing the $1.20s for long, and are much better at internet poker than I am!

Then it was a lucky read and I got lucky. This isn't the first time I have read a villains hand this well, just the first time I had something that I though I could play against it. But fear not, I will be at the $1.20's for a while yet to come, my head up play isn't very good and even against 2 others I generally don't fair that well. I generally get to careless.

I only posted this hand because it has been the best situational read I have had yet, and try as I might I couldn't humble myself to not be proud of it.

[soccerkeeper]

if that says 70% raise pre I would just shove over when it comes back on the flop. This isn't a good flop vs a sane player's 4 bet range but given you still think he can have a lot of hands on the flop you may as well just get it in pre and hope you get villain two's dead money.

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