When to make a c-bet?

[trilerian]

$1+.20 s&g's.

Alright, this is a big problem I am having. Scenario, I am co or btn and dealt 10's+ AQo+, AQs+. 2 loose players limp, so I raise 3-4bb + 1bb for each limper. Get called by loose players, (which is good, right?). Flop comes and doesn't hit me, or an over card to my pp. Both limpers check. Do I make a c-bet here, been involved in hands with them before and if I don't bet the flop, I will get donked into on the turn. Anytime I have a hand, they seem to fold to my c-bets. I used to c-bet a lot, and most of the time it worked, but I got into a rut and lost about 20 s&g's straight from either calling stations or getting out drawn. So I figured c-betting so much was a leak and I should stop doing it, and now I don't do it so much, and it seems that not doing it is a leak. If I am up against one person, especially if that person is a tight player, and they check the flop to me, I generally will c-bet, but oddly enough, it is usually against the tight players that I hit the flop, when I want to hit the flop against the loose players.

Don't get me wrong, I am not complaining, I really want help here, I feel like I am losing out on dead pots because of my inability to bluff.

[Nakamura]

Make sure there is no difference in the bet sizing you are making between a c-bet and a bet when you connect the flop. This can make you easy to read when you have a hand, although most opps will not be observant enough to notice this.

Also try reading TLR's post in the stickys thread, it offers some very good advice which I found useful when I was having issues with c-betting.

[gingerwizard]

I'm more inclined to c-bet in position, and up to 2 players is ok.

The comment about only hitting the flop against tight players just seems a little negative, and of course cannot be true.

TT+ is played different to AQ or AK IMO

[trilerian]

The comment about only hitting the flop against tight players just seems a little negative, and of course cannot be true.

You're right, and I suppose thinking along those lines will hurt my game as well, but man is it hard not to. Thanks for the info though.

[DoanDiggy]

Against loose players, you'll want to c-bet a lot of flops that they can't continue on: a lot of players just want to get to the flop no matter what, and then they're ready to fold if they have no part of it. If the flop looks really drawish (flush draw + straight draw) and missed you, betting might be a bad idea since they will call, but it's not always terrible in position.

The nice thing about being in position is that you can c-bet the flop, check behind on a lot of turns, and then decide whether firing again on the river makes sense. One thing to remember at these stakes is that with an unpaired hand like AK (or AQ on a K board), there's no reason to bluff the river. The player will either have a pair they will call you with, or you have the best hand. If you have KT on a QcJc2d4d7s board, a river bet might be a good way to knock out that Ac5c hand that was chasing a flush.

Just be selective, don't be afraid to c-bet at scary looking boards, be ready to shutdown when called on a dry board, and like gingerwizard said, try to follow some of the same lines when you actually have a hand. For example, with AJ or QT in position on that same QJ247, you could bet the flop, check behind the turn for pot control since a Q or two pair might be beating you, and bet behind a check on the river to get get value from {worse jacks, pocket pairs, a hand that hit the 7 on the river, etc.}, following exactly the same pattern as with KT.

[gingerwizard]

Doan,

Some of the things you advocate seem a little loose for me. I can't go into everything without writing an essay, and I believe TLR did that admirably in his sticky. Post hands and i'll give my honest unbiased opinion. And I promise not to read other posts before I reply too!

[taipan168]

Others have already spoken about the importance of position (ie. I would rather c-bet into 2 players if they have both checked the flop rather than if I am first to act).

The other thing that is important is flop texture. If I have a missed AK and I was the preflop raiser, I would much rather c-bet a 962 rainbow flop rather than a JT9 double suited flop.

One more thing is that if you are last to act, sometimes it can be better to take the free card if your hand missed but has some value, eg. you have AK and the flop comes QJ5 as you have up to 10 outs to hit a better hand. Betting after two players have checked may just get you check-raised off your hand.

Otherwise, post specific hands where this has happened and we can give specific advice. Stack sizes, position, reads etc. all matter here.

[baudib]

One thing to do to balance your cbets is to make 1/3 to 1/2-PSB with hands like large overpairs to the board or TPTK on relatively dry flops or very strong hands like 2 pr or a set of 7s on KJ7 board, for instance.

Although in general we want to play hands like overpairs or TPTK very fast and very straightforward, I think we get more value both in cbetting and value betting randomizing our betting.

The goal here is to get more value; if we have AA and can induce someone with K8 on a T82 board to play back at us, it's good. If we have AQ and get 88 to fold on a KTx board, that's also more value. If they fold all the time when we have AA and call all the time when we have AK unimproved, we're doing something wrong.

Alternatively, we can just bet 3/4 pot with real hands as well as air.

Every tournament player with $25 or whatever to buy HOH now thinks he can pick off cbets, and of course, every donk puts the PRF on AK. "OMG half-pot size-bet, you have AK!"

[soccerkeeper]

Doan,

Some of the things you advocate seem a little loose for me. I can't go into everything without writing an essay, and I believe TLR did that admirably in his sticky. Post hands and i'll give my honest unbiased opinion. And I promise not to read other posts before I reply too!

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can be true in most situations