Three-handed, calling SS all-in

[baudib]

I don't know if this should be a call or not at FT of 90-man SNG. I am priced in if he just has overs and he could certainly have something like K4 or A5.
But if I double him up he becomes a pretty big threat again, so folding is best?

No Limit Holdem Tournament
$24 + $2 KO Sit & Go
3 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
BTN MrHolliday1 (28124)
SB O-StateBrawlers (151318)
BB Hero (90558)

Blinds: 4000/8000 Ante 1000

Pre-flop: (15,000, 2 players) Hero is BB
MrHolliday1 goes all-in 27,124, O-StateBrawlers folds

Final Pot: 42,124

[drmcboy]

You're priced in against a whole lot more than overs. this is top 10 %, note than all the pairs have you crushed and you're still 2/1.

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

227,736,432 games 0.005 secs 45,547,286,400 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 33.599% 33.33% 00.27% 74756853 609184.50 { 7s6s }
Hand 1: 66.401% 66.13% 00.27% 148336602 609184.50 { 77+, A9s+, KTs+, QTs+, AJo+, KQo }


auto call. re: him being a threat, he's already a threat since you're wanting to make this fold.

[mcatdog]

I was going to suggest calling with any two cards, but I think you could maybe fold the bottom 15% of hands. You should be willing to take a slightly equity disadvantage for the chance of knocking him out. You're not in a good situation at all right now, the big stack can push you around at will as long as the short stack is around.

Also there are programs that solve this type of problem, you'll get a better answer there than you'll get from the forums.

auto call. re: him being a threat, he's already a threat since you're wanting to make this fold.

drmcboy always right.

[sk8r_daniel]

So if its mathematically correct to call 19,000 into 42,000 getting better than 2:1 you ALWAYS call? I see alot of posts of people looking at situations that are pot odds correct to call. But are looking for ways to fold their hand either to maintain a chip advantage or some sort of edge they think they have.

So my question is: When is it correct to fold a mathematically correct hand?

How do you quantify the edge you have? For example, what if 2 other villains are folding all hands except top 10% 3 handed. I think I would fold this pot odds situation because I am confident I can just steal their blinds over and over. Are there any other situations where it is correct to fold a pot odds call?

[mcatdog]

But are looking for ways to fold their hand either to maintain a chip advantage or some sort of edge they think they have.

No one has a huge edge with 4 BB.

[sk8r_daniel]

Fair enough... I'll take that as a yes. Are there bubble situations where you would fold a pot odds correct call if it was your whole stack?

What about a situation like this:
blinds 400/800 ante 75
Hero BB 3375
V 1 SB 3375
V2 button 3375
V3 UTG 3375

UTG folds, button folds and V1 who has been playing very tight, trying to get into the bubble, pushes into your BB. You have to call 2275 into 4350 and you have 67s. The top 3 make the money.

[dthorne04]

Fair enough... I'll take that as a yes. Are there bubble situations where you would fold a pot odds correct call if it was your whole stack?

What about a situation like this:
blinds 400/800 ante 75
Hero BB 3375
V 1 SB 3375
V2 button 3375
V3 UTG 3375

UTG folds, button folds and V1 who has been playing very tight, trying to get into the bubble, pushes into your BB. You have to call 2275 into 4350 and you have 67s. The top 3 make the money.

that's a completely different situation, i.e. an sng. it has literally nothing to do with the hand posted as baudib was already in the money. and you'd autofold here with 76ss because there's literally no reason to call here.

[drmcboy]

So my question is: When is it correct to fold a mathematically correct hand?

'mathematically correct' includes both chip EV and $EV. In the OP both point us to a call - as mcat said getting to HU takes the hand cuffs off of us.

in your post $EV is much more important which is why we would fold. In the OP we are not broke if we lose the pot.

Also note that the range I posted is top 10%, the BU in OP is probably shoving at least 30% and maybe 100%.

[sk8r_daniel]

It has relevance to the hand because I'm looking for the difference between situations. I'm quite aware that it is a different situation.

You say there is literally no reason to call. But my whole point was that I am looking for situations where you have pot odds to call but it is correct to fold. The reason you would have to call is that you have the pot odds to call. The reason you would have to fold is that if you lose (66% of the time) you don't make any money whatsoever. This is a very obvious situation where it is correct to fold when you have the pot odds to call....that is why I posted the VERY OBVIOUS hand.

I'm wondering if there are any other...more situation specific spots (that I cannot think of) where it is correct to fold when you have pot odds. Can you think of any other spots?

[sk8r_daniel]

Okay that makes sense, I never thought of the difference between Chip EV and $EV...where could I go to read more on this? I recently just ordered HOH v1 and v2 so that may cover it.

[baudib]

Ah, you guys should know I totally called this. It was quite an exciting AQs-76s race, as he flopped a flush draw and I had an OESD. He won, but I got him eventually.

For fun, here's 32o hand:
No Limit Holdem Tournament
$24 + $2 KO Sit & Go
2 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
BTN Hero (136682)
BB O-StateBrawlers (133318)

Blinds: 5000/10000 Ante 1000

Pre-flop: (17,000, 2 players) Hero is BTN
Hero raises to 24,000, O-StateBrawlers calls 14,000

Flop: (52,000, 2 players)
O-StateBrawlers checks, Hero bets 40,000, O-StateBrawlers folds

Final Pot: 50,000

Hero wins 90,000 ( won +26,000 )
O-StateBrawlers lost -24,000

[baudib]

Okay that makes sense, I never thought of the difference between Chip EV and $EV...where could I go to read more on this? I recently just ordered HOH v1 and v2 so that may cover it.

I think Harrington says you can only call in the situation described with QQ+.

[sk8r_daniel]

Wow, that is tight. Of course that would change if the opponent was shoving everything down your throat. PS - I don't think I could fold jacks there.

Lol at the 32 hand. Did you eventually take it down?

[drmcboy]

First read the stickies on ICM in the SNG forum.

kill everyone gives a lot more space to ICM discussion than HOH. both are good reads. If you play a lot of SNGs the Moshman book is probably worth it also.

[sk8r_daniel]

Yeah I've also got kill phil and kill everyone on the way. I do quite well at sitngo's (34% ROI over 300 games)but most of what I know is from experience. I'm trying to fine tune my game to a more professional level.