$10 88 on turn

[cag8f]

Opp. was about 35/6 over this tourney and a previous. Do I slow down here or push? How afraid am I of opp. holding Kxs?


Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, 10+1 Tournament, 30/60 Blinds (7 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

CO (t1690)
Button (t1535)
SB (t2990)
Hero (BB) (t3460)
UTG (t1325)
MP1 (t1690)
MP2 (t810)

Hero's M: 38.44

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8, 8
UTG calls t60, MP1 calls t60, 3 folds, SB calls t30, Hero checks

Flop: (t240) 3, 4, 4 (4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets t180, UTG calls t180, 2 folds

Turn: (t600) K (2 players)
Hero???

[taipan168]

From the red colour of the font I know you bet, but typically I would check here and see what opp does.

[AAsoooted]

From the red colour of the font I know you bet, but typically I would check here and see what opp does.

i think a check here screams im scared of that k and ivites a bet from oppo, unless ya gonna reraise a check for me personally is like giving up on the hand.
with bs id be inclined to bet 1/2pot on the turn give myself another chance of taking the pot down, if he reraises, well you can still get away without losing too much of your stack if he flat calls then i would be a lot more cautious if i didnt improve on the river

[baudib]

I'm not worried about the K. I can't tell if there's a flush draw or not. If not, what is he floating the flop with?

[AAsoooted]

I'm not worried about the K. I can't tell if there's a flush draw or not. If not, what is he floating the flop with?

utg has limped in pre
i think a raise preflop from bb would of given us a lot more info about what villians poss range is......just a personall thing but i like to ask questions of utg limpers

as played i just dont think you can afford not to fire another barrel at the turn.
a check for me shows weakness and if im villian im gonna ask you the question if you check the turn after getting floated on the flop wether ive got a hand or not

[baudib]

To be honest, I'm for c/c, c/f at this point. UTG limper could have AA or 65 or A4. Our hand is stronger than villain might suspect but 88 is not a hand to go broke with on this board.

[taipan168]

From the red colour of the font I know you bet, but typically I would check here and see what opp does.

i think a check here screams im scared of that k and ivites a bet from oppo, unless ya gonna reraise a check for me personally is like giving up on the hand.

I think opps bluff scare cards less often than you would think. Very often this hand would go check/check on the turn in which case you can call a reasonable bet on the river for a cheap showdown. I would even call a half pot bet or less on the turn to see what happens on the river - if opp fires again we have to figure we're beat.

[AAsoooted]

i hear what your saying guys but again a personal thing

hero has shown aggression on the flop and been floated
villian could well have only a flush draw if hes not limped in with a monster
if hero now checks the turn does that not now show weakness?
he could be allowing villian a cheap shot at his draw

by betting the turn your showing strength and should be getting rid of anything but trouble

btw hi guys ...,only been playing a year and luv discussion
like this its great to see other peoples angle on certain hands maybe a problem for me is once i show aggression i like to keep it up unless im convinced im behind

[taipan168]

if hero now checks the turn does that not now show weakness?

Why are you so worried about showing weakness? If you check (and show weakness) very often opp will check again or do something silly like bet tiny so you can easily call.

Put it another way, if you bet, what hands that you beat will call? Maybe a very badly played 3x or 55-77. What hands that beat you will fold? Again, maybe a very badly played 99-QQ, but most hands that beat you will call.

he could be allowing villian a cheap shot at his draw

This argument is a good one for betting but has to be weighed against building a big pot when all we have is second pair.

by betting the turn your showing strength and should be getting rid of anything but trouble

Again, please explain why "showing strength" is so important!

[baudib]

Taipan is exactly right. Pot is plenty big enough to win here with 88 unimproved. We're not playing for stacks unless we have monster pairs (JJ+) or better (sets, boats, etc.). If we bet here, say, $400, then we're going to be forced to call a reasonable-sized bet (say $500) on the river even if a scary card comes, due to pot odds.

[AAsoooted]

Taipan is exactly right. Pot is plenty big enough to win here with 88 unimproved. We're not playing for stacks unless we have monster pairs (JJ+) or better (sets, boats, etc.). If we bet here, say, $400, then we're going to be forced to call a reasonable-sized bet (say $500) on the river even if a scary card comes, due to pot odds.

yeah tks guys everything your saying is making a lot of sense and prob where i come unstuck in some of my games

ive taken this line on the way the hand woz played and if i do fire at the flop at get called i have this overwhelming desire to fire the turn as well prob too aggresive but i do play tag so when i do deciede to get invovlved thats the way i am

personally i like to limp in with low to med pocs obviouisly hoping to hit a set but i think in this instance i would of raised from the bb to get more info pre about the limp utg, ive found that many ep limpers will fold to a raise from lp

[cag8f]

Thanks for the discussion.

Betting is definitely correct to make him pay to draw. But is pushing correct, or should I just half pot a draw here (he has ~1000 left). Pushing may be even correct to get him off a hand I don't beat, like 99 or TT. Pushing is definitely incorrect if he has a big pair, or x4--neither of which he's likely to lay down. I think all of those hands are in his range. I guess I need to find out how often he wakes up with each of those, and calculate EV based on that. Don't have time for that, so if anyone wants to run that it may be interesting.

And to be clear Tai, my action was in red not because I bet, but because I specifically made it red to highlight where the action was left off.

[taipan168]

Betting is definitely correct to make him pay to draw.

I think both Baudib and myself said that the best action here was to check and see what opp does. I'm less worried about giving a free card here than I am about building a monster pot that will mean we have to play for most or all of our stack.

[bigspenda73]

bet/call obv

[taipan168]

bet/call obv

So we're prepared to call a shove over on the turn? If we bet 400, get called and opp shoves the river do we call?

[bigspenda73]

have you noticed UTGs stack size yet?

[taipan168]

have you noticed UTGs stack size yet?

That's exactly why I would check the turn rather than bet.

[bigspenda73]

well c/c on the turn seems awful

[taipan168]

well c/c on the turn seems awful

Why?

[bigspenda73]

I'm not saying checking is bad, but c/c'ing is bad, if I check, I'm c/f'ing.

should be apparent then why I think c/c is bad

[taipan168]

Depends how big opp bets. If we check, a lot of opps will either check behind or do something retarded like minbet. Agree if we check and opp bets >1/2 pot size then I'm most likely getting out.