just made the money.

[cardplayer52]

i'm super short stacked think i'm ahead of the utg limper and definatly ahead of the caller in late. but here i'm confused. i can play it 2 ways. 1st shove hope to get called by a weaker hand. or call then shove w/no overs hoping someone calls w/a weaker hand.
Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em Tournament, 500/1000 Blinds 125 Ante (9 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Button (t35866)
SB (t32874)
Hero (BB) (t6250)
UTG (t8985)
UTG+1 (t29240)
MP1 (t43369)
MP2 (t6558)
MP3 (t14332)
CO (t33280)

Hero's M: 2.38

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q, Q[img] ----call shove w/no overs or shove pre??

[Jack Sawyer]

HH is bad.

In any case, try to get your chips in that pot as quick as possible.

[BennyLaRue]

Just push. It's really the only option. Your M is tiny and you can't afford to get fancy.

[Sprayed]

There should be no thought except, how fast can I get my chips in?

[CBAT]

ALL IN please!

Rather make moves with QQ when you still have a decent amount of chips, then waiting until you get down low and have to try and steal with a weak hand.

[drmcboy]

Well first I don't like the idea that no one even wants to consider the value of a check.

Saying "there should be no thought" to someone trying to make sure they get the most value is . FWIW I see many low stakes MTTers who are pretty good in most areas but they are so afraid to get drawn out on that they miss out on good slow play spots.

If you think people will fold most hands except pairs (which they won't have often) and Kx/Ax (which have about the right price anyway) checking looks tempting. If you think you'll get a call from one of them with pretty much anything then shove for sure.

The biggest problem with a check is if you're in against 3 random hands not containing an A or K, that means there are 8 left in the deck, and we know where 8 cards are (I think there are 4 people in the hand?), so 8/44 cards will look bad for you times 3 which means you'll end up giving up on about half the boards when you usually have the best hand. So I would still shove since that's probably the biggest mistake we can make in this spot.

If we don't give up on over boards i dunno, there is something to be said for trying to let people make something and tripling up (or better!) rather than ~ doubling up. We would also want to consider how often people will bluff Ax boards because if it checks around we could always just shove the turn there. This of course opens us up to shoving a 2 outer which is maybe a bigger mistake then folding the best hand on the flop.

The best reason to shove would be if you thought people might fold hands like KJs/A7s to a shove because they will for sure call will all their PPs.

[Sprayed]

ALL IN please!

Rather make moves with QQ when you still have a decent amount of chips, then waiting until you get down low and have to try and steal with a weak hand.

Don't think he is looking to steal, just get max value out of this hand in this spot. Refer to dr's post which is excelente.

[Gshark]

Well first I don't like the idea that no one even wants to consider the value of a check.

Saying "there should be no thought" to someone trying to make sure they get the most value is . FWIW I see many low stakes MTTers who are pretty good in most areas but they are so afraid to get drawn out on that they miss out on good slow play spots.

If you think people will fold most hands except pairs (which they won't have often) and Kx/Ax (which have about the right price anyway) checking looks tempting. If you think you'll get a call from one of them with pretty much anything then shove for sure.

The biggest problem with a check is if you're in against 3 random hands not containing an A or K, that means there are 8 left in the deck, and we know where 8 cards are (I think there are 4 people in the hand?), so 8/44 cards will look bad for you times 3 which means you'll end up giving up on about half the boards when you usually have the best hand. So I would still shove since that's probably the biggest mistake we can make in this spot.

If we don't give up on over boards i dunno, there is something to be said for trying to let people make something and tripling up (or better!) rather than ~ doubling up. We would also want to consider how often people will bluff Ax boards because if it checks around we could always just shove the turn there. This of course opens us up to shoving a 2 outer which is maybe a bigger mistake then folding the best hand on the flop.

The best reason to shove would be if you thought people might fold hands like KJs/A7s to a shove because they will for sure call will all their PPs.

Very well said sir.

[Mr Bigcity]

being that short stacked their is hardly any other choice, but to shove and hope someone calls with a like q j or ace rag

[hopeful]

with such a small M you have to be willing to take a chance, with QQ i would slow play and try and get all the chips in with a caller or two. Sure you might loose but a tiny M needs to take a shot or you will loose anyway. If you want to get all your chips in and be called the best way is slowly so i am for checking and betting the flop. I might even wait to the turn but they are all going in.

[BennyLaRue]

Saying "there should be no thought" to someone trying to make sure they get the most value is .

My thoughts are that value takes a backseat to survival in this situation. Isolating against one opp (which is likely...it's not clear in the op but I think there were two limpers) improves your equity from something like 55% against two opps with limpy ranges to 72%. If the best case scenario is tripling up and I am successful in doing that, I still don't have anything close to healthy M, so it isn't worth the extra risk to me. I'd rather try to survive the likely necessary two all-in situations at 72% each than two flips.

Besides, why make it a tricky hand to play? Checking pre might lead to a difficult situation post. What to do if a K flops? What if checking post leads to it being checked through? If betting out post on a dry flop leads to two folds, I've wasted a good hand and I can't afford to wait for more.

So, right, the first few posts didn't answer the question if the question is merely how does he get the most value. If that's all that the op cares about then sure, consider other options. But I think that's like asking the stewardess for more peanuts when the oxygen masks drop and the plane is already nose down.

[drmcboy]

First, I'm glad you posted reasons. My main point was there was a whole lot of thought that we should put into this spot.

we want to accumulate and you should make the play that does that, i don't know why you are worried about survival. You yourself say our stack will suck even if we triple... so why would we try and make a play to protect an even smaller stack? If your primary thought in MTTs is survival you are probably making a lot of mistakes.

We would decide what to do based on Ax or Kx boards before you check so it isn't tricky at all.

Your equity numbers don't make sense since they ignore the flop, which is kinda my point, it's much harder than you guys are giving credit for to account for the value of letting people catch a hand we beat they can call with.

If we assume people are calling with Ax and Kx anyway, we don't (EDIT my mush type) lose anything by checking since again they aren't really making a mistake by calling pre flop. But we give them a chance to make a mistake by pairing their kicker and calling or calling with A high as a big dog. That's even more true if someone has T9.