Is there any other way to play this hand?

[tuuk2]

Final table of 180-man Turbo SNG $2.20. I'm the 2nd shortest stack
with A-6 Off. I'm going for the win here, not just trying to move up the money ladder. Should I have waited for a better spot? I know I'm only being called by a better hand, but I would settle for the blinds and antes...

PokerStars Game #24918376251: Tournament #140692342, $2.00+$0.20 Hold'em No Limit - Level XVII (2000/4000) - 2009/02/14 0:42:19 ET
Table '140692342 1' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 2: bullabbydog (25385 in chips)
Seat 3: tuuk2 (16626 in chips)
Seat 4: perogi (31886 in chips)
Seat 5: VITALIY80 (81943 in chips)
Seat 6: redth11 (40308 in chips)
Seat 7: nonditjean (15677 in chips)
Seat 8: rarasport (58175 in chips)
bullabbydog: posts the ante 400
tuuk2: posts the ante 400
perogi: posts the ante 400
VITALIY80: posts the ante 400
redth11: posts the ante 400
nonditjean: posts the ante 400
rarasport: posts the ante 400
VITALIY80: posts small blind 2000
redth11: posts big blind 4000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to tuuk2 [6s Ah]
nonditjean: folds
rarasport: folds
bullabbydog: folds
tuuk2: raises 12226 to 16226 and is all-in

[dev]

You got it right.

[cow344]

You got a couple of antes and blinds worth of chips, just wait a little and see who has ants in their pants or dress.

A-6 os do not connect to each other in suits or by the numbers.

You need 4 runners to hit the felt which makes the odds to high!

[dev]

Sorry cow, but the only thing wrong with this play was how long we waited before we put the money in. Counting the antes, we have 2 rounds of blinds at a 7 handed table. If people were stacking off somewhat loose then maybe we could wait it out and climb up the ladder a bit, but that's not the case and that's not what we're going for anyway. A6 is the nuts here. If we could have pushed earlier, with more fold equity, we would have been better off. Also, if we could have pushed into stacks smaller than those in the blinds it would have been better. Still, our stack gets smaller every hand, a better situation isn't likely to appear.

[Sprayed]

This is fine. From an ICM perspective, you are second to last in chips. Probably not the best hand to shove since most that call will have a better ace, but sometimes you are getting called fairly wide from the blinds due to odds.

[tuuk2]

A little more information to help... I wasn't looking for a call there, because I figured that if I was called, it was probably by someone with a better Ace, except for possibly the BB who had called my all-in with Q-7 suited 30 hands earlier. I had been able to steal the blinds about 10 minutes earlier from a similar position , but I was on a run of poor cards with people entering the pot with big raises in front of me. This was the first decent hand I'd had in about 15 hands and I felt that I had enough chips to make the three remaining stacks think hard before snap calling. I've been trying to ramp up the aggressiveness because I think my late game passivity has been hurting me in previous games. For the most part, the short stacks were pretty tight there, so I don't think folding to a higher position was an option. And as I said earlier, I was looking for a win here, or at least a top three. I appreciate all the advice!

[fcuk22]

Final table of 180-man Turbo SNG $2.20. I'm the 2nd shortest stack
with A-6 Off. I'm going for the win here, not just trying to move up the money ladder. Should I have waited for a better spot? I know I'm only being called by a better hand, but I would settle for the blinds and antes...

PokerStars Game #24918376251: Tournament #140692342, $2.00+$0.20 Hold'em No Limit - Level XVII (2000/4000) - 2009/02/14 0:42:19 ET
Table '140692342 1' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 2: bullabbydog (25385 in chips)
Seat 3: tuuk2 (16626 in chips)
Seat 4: perogi (31886 in chips)
Seat 5: VITALIY80 (81943 in chips)
Seat 6: redth11 (40308 in chips)
Seat 7: nonditjean (15677 in chips)
Seat 8: rarasport (58175 in chips)
bullabbydog: posts the ante 400
tuuk2: posts the ante 400
perogi: posts the ante 400
VITALIY80: posts the ante 400
redth11: posts the ante 400
nonditjean: posts the ante 400
rarasport: posts the ante 400
VITALIY80: posts small blind 2000
redth11: posts big blind 4000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to tuuk2 [6s Ah]
nonditjean: folds
rarasport: folds
bullabbydog: folds
tuuk2: raises 12226 to 16226 and is all-in

in a word no

[cardplayer52]

my take is <7 bb's play tight. if you make this play w/7bigs or more i think it works. but w/ less than i think 4bigs here theres no way you got enough fold equity to make this a good play. it also depends highly on what ranges you think call you. as you said before you think the button was calling loose. there are two things i dont like w/ this play. one you dont got enough chips to make them all fold. two is the weak ace. i would make this play with 2 weaker cards and more chips. say 67s or even 34s. if i get called i want to be live. read (or reread)harrinton's 2nd book HOH. and look at the zone play. here your in the dead zone and didnt want to get there by being blinded. he tells exactly how to play in this spot before you get here too.

[fjuanl]

this is fine and i dont necessarily care that you'll often be dominated when called. sometimes you'll get looked up by worse aces and broadways. your ace is a blocker; its less likely one of the 3 villains behind you has one. its also +EV

but w/ less than i think 4bigs here theres no way you got enough fold equity to make this a good play.

huh? with less than 4, people will often call your shove with any two in the blinds. a6o is 57% against a random hand

[tuuk2]

I agree I was probably a little too tight there near the end. Three hands earlier I had 7-8 off in the SB and was folded to. I should have probably gone all-in there but I was thinking that the BB with twice as many chips would snap-call there. Still, I probably should have taken the chance then. Maybe even a stop and go there. Just couldn't pull the trigger.

[cow344]

Sorry cow, but the only thing wrong with this play was how long we waited before we put the money in. Counting the antes, we have 2 rounds of blinds at a 7 handed table. If people were stacking off somewhat loose then maybe we could wait it out and climb up the ladder a bit, but that's not the case and that's not what we're going for anyway. A6 is the nuts here. If we could have pushed earlier, with more fold equity, we would have been better off. Also, if we could have pushed into stacks smaller than those in the blinds it would have been better. Still, our stack gets smaller every hand, a better situation isn't likely to appear.

The way I practice bankroll management in each poker site I still stand by my view in first post. (Off record my first straight flush was when I play 7 8 spades, 7 8 os connect by numbers and is a stronger hand than A 6)!

The opponent could of been trapping and you sprung the trap for yourself is my view. By the way I do respect your view I have seen it kill and be killed too!

[Stacks]

Sorry cow, but the only thing wrong with this play was how long we waited before we put the money in. Counting the antes, we have 2 rounds of blinds at a 7 handed table. If people were stacking off somewhat loose then maybe we could wait it out and climb up the ladder a bit, but that's not the case and that's not what we're going for anyway. A6 is the nuts here. If we could have pushed earlier, with more fold equity, we would have been better off. Also, if we could have pushed into stacks smaller than those in the blinds it would have been better. Still, our stack gets smaller every hand, a better situation isn't likely to appear.

The way I practice bankroll management in each poker site I still stand by my view in first post. (Off record my first straight flush was when I play 7 8 spades, 7 8 os connect by numbers and is a stronger hand than A 6)!

The opponent could of been trapping and you sprung the trap for yourself is my view. By the way I do respect your view I have seen it kill and be killed too!

Just what opponent are we exactly talking about here trapping us? You mean the ones that have yet to act at all? If they have already trapped us and have yet to make a play, then well it was just a sick play by them. And I would seriously have to assume they are using PokerTracker if they have the ability to do that kind of cheating stuff.

[drmcboy]

AA in BB ITS a TARP

cow - this post should help:

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ed-t53637.html

[cow344]

Sorry cow, but the only thing wrong with this play was how long we waited before we put the money in. Counting the antes, we have 2 rounds of blinds at a 7 handed table. If people were stacking off somewhat loose then maybe we could wait it out and climb up the ladder a bit, but that's not the case and that's not what we're going for anyway. A6 is the nuts here. If we could have pushed earlier, with more fold equity, we would have been better off. Also, if we could have pushed into stacks smaller than those in the blinds it would have been better. Still, our stack gets smaller every hand, a better situation isn't likely to appear.

The way I practice bankroll management in each poker site I still stand by my view in first post. (Off record my first straight flush was when I play 7 8 spades, 7 8 os connect by numbers and is a stronger hand than A 6)!

The opponent could of been trapping and you sprung the trap for yourself is my view. By the way I do respect your view I have seen it kill and be killed too!

Just what opponent are we exactly talking about here trapping us? You mean the ones that have yet to act at all? If they have already trapped us and have yet to make a play, then well it was just a sick play by them. And I would seriously have to assume they are using PokerTracker if they have the ability to do that kind of cheating stuff.

Allot of people go to a very tight play near bubble and will only play Pocket Qs are better going all in with A 6 os we will be trapping ourselves since it is below a 50% chance against pocket Qs or higher.

Poker is a game where patience and discipline can kill if you overact with less than a 50% hand. A 6 os is a one card hole hand! Limited outs. Every 17 hands we should be getting pocket pairs by odds ( if odds generator at poker site is fair) and there is enough chip in the stack to wait for that in my eyes.

[Stacks]

I had a very long response typed out showing some math, etc behind the situation, but I then realized it will probably be useless. It seems you are set in your ways and truly believe you know what you are talking about. That is fine, you are entitled to your opinion. However, you are definitely overlooking many important concepts (hint: fold equity, calling range, pot equity).

I won't comment on the merit of the play in OP, because quite frankly I don't feel qualified. I do however know that your assumption that villains will tighten up around the bubble is both true, and works in our favor. The only change to your assumption I would make is I'd say "bad players tighten up around the bubble". Which means we should be loosening up in most instances to exploit their newly found tight ranges. Which obviously increases our fold equity, and makes plays like this even more profitable.

I was simply addressing in my earlier comment the fact that they haven't in any way trapped us. Even if we shove and get called by pocket Aces, we have not been trapped. We have simply made a +ev play (still +ev mind you), and ran into a cooler.

Good day to you sir. I'm sure my post will be overlooked by you in your quest to teach others how to effectively misapply the 2/4 rule. Good luck. You have my best wishes.

[LuckySlevin]

Allot of people go to a very tight play near bubble and will only play Pocket Qs are better going all in with A 6 os we will be trapping ourselves since it is below a 50% chance against pocket Qs or higher.

Cow one of the problems with that line of reasoning is you're ignoring the times that those left to act do not hold QQ+, what do you think the chances are that one of the remaining players left to act holds QQ+ ?

[youngunpoker]

XxStacksxX Posted: Fri, 20 Feb 2009, 2:56pm

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I had a very long response typed out showing some math, etc behind the situation, but I then realized it will probably be useless. It seems you are set in your ways and truly believe you know what you are talking about. That is fine, you are entitled to your opinion. However, you are definitely overlooking many important concepts (hint: fold equity, calling range, pot equity).

I won't comment on the merit of the play in OP, because quite frankly I don't feel qualified. I do however know that your assumption that villains will tighten up around the bubble is both true, and works in our favor. The only change to your assumption I would make is I'd say "bad players tighten up around the bubble". Which means we should be loosening up in most instances to exploit their newly found tight ranges. Which obviously increases our fold equity, and makes plays like this even more profitable.

I was simply addressing in my earlier comment the fact that they haven't in any way trapped us. Even if we shove and get called by pocket Aces, we have not been trapped. We have simply made a +ev play (still +ev mind you), and ran into a cooler.

Good day to you sir. I'm sure my post will be overlooked by you in your quest to teach others how to effectively misapply the 2/4 rule. Good luck. You have my best wishes.

LOL! It seems that Stack has taken a disliking in Cow on multiple occasions. But I have to agree with her. A-6os may look bad but if everyone folds, you have increased your stack by almost 50% If you get called and Q-Q+ appears you deal with it call it a good tourney and move one. If you win your back in the mix. If you don't get called our still get back into the mix. Great play!

[drmcboy]

But I have to agree with her.

plus look how cute she is!

[youngunpoker]

Ok sorry for the backward post. The Quote should be at the top and I said the stuff in the bottom.

[Stacks]

But I have to agree with her.

plus look how cute she is!

wanna cyber?

[Stacks]

And of course I've taken a bit of a disliking to cow. But there is three really solid reasons behind it. (1) he's likely a freetroller by the way some of his posts have come off, but whatever. That's not even the important reasons. (2) He has come on and given bad advice in numerous threads, and has even started a thread to teach others to do something incorrectly (the 2/4 thread). (3) He doesn't seem open to the advice of other players.

But it's fine. I'm gonna send nudes to the dr and I'll feel better. tee hee.

[cow344]

Allot of people go to a very tight play near bubble and will only play Pocket Qs are better going all in with A 6 os we will be trapping ourselves since it is below a 50% chance against pocket Qs or higher.

Cow one of the problems with that line of reasoning is you're ignoring the times that those left to act do not hold QQ+, what do you think the chances are that one of the remaining players left to act holds QQ+ ?

As holding any pocket pair here it increases as the folds go around, the rough odds are 1 in 17 hands will have pockets period. I like to keep bankrolls at sites healthy!

I see for an example 7 2 os hole cards as worst possible hand since they do not connect in any way. On the flop, turn and river has to hit them for you to have a chance! ( 3, 4, 5, 6 comes the 2 is counterfeited, you are playing a one card hand)

A 6 os in this case is just like 2 7 os you need 4 out 5 felt cards to connect to one have the cards to make have a hand! (2,3,4,5 comes the Ace is counterfeited) True if 4 of the same suit as Ace hit felt and no felt card pairs you have a win but for me those odds are to high. Let the other players panic they may be thinking and seeing what every one who laughs at my thinking sees! I see it to but quit often the last player to do a tilt move ( all in is a tilt move ) lives to play an other hand. Who knows your next hand may of been better and a winner.

What be better to see more hole cards in future and see more hole cards by folding here you get that chance to see the future which is better in my view. An other Ace with higher kicker or pocket 2s you are beat by holding onto A 6 os, near the bubble I know I will defend my blinds just like most people.

With 50% chip stack in future you still can grow it after the fold.

The pros even say to fold the best hand is the best strategy in the long run and play that well to get to bubble and burst before keeping your bankroll healthy, well you are just making it harder for yourself.

A penny saved is as good as a penny earned! Or in this case a chip saved is as good as a chip earned here, no use trapping yourself by tilting with an all in. If you do not like my 2 cents I really really want to play against you in the above situation!


AND THAT"S THE TRUTH!!

By the way I work at 2 jobs and could not reply till now. <==== my excuse and sticking to it. (13 1/2 hours + travel , Friday , a 6 1/2 hours for one employer and 10 hours for the other employer Saturday and Sunday morning)

[Stacks]

oh my wows!! Never has my assumptions been so accurate.

Don't you guys just hate that all-in tilt move?

[fjuanl]

The pros even say to fold the best hand is the best strategy in the long run

wat.

[Stacks]

If you do not like my 2 cents I really really want to play against you in the above situation!


AND THAT"S THE TRUTH!!

These type of individuals are more tilting than the freetrollers imo. It's always a great idea to come to a forum to learn/discuss, but be so set in your ways that you continually spew bad advice, and instead of trying to figure out why the majority disagree with you, instead you defend your point with more bad advice.

Much love though. You likely pay my rent.