My thoughts/strategy on DoNs

[asdpikas]

DoNs!

i've been playing some, winning mostly, but more importantly, i've really been thinking about correct strat for them.

Thought u may wanna hear my thoughts and discuss them with me.


Da DoN Strat.

First 3 levels.
-Play only AA or KK. Whatever happens.
If raised and reraised to u, play only AA for a push. If 2 or more players all in, fold AA too.
-If u open, open big. 6 or 7x, or bigger if table plays that way. If there are limpers, just push.

Late strategy.
Only push or fold. Do not call a push without a huge hand or if u are almost dead.
Push only if u really need the chips (see considerations below). Fold all but KK or AA if someone limps or raises (push these) unless u have a read on someone as a limp-folder (still be careful and push tight). In general, play so tight it hurts, and push only with big hands in favorable situations.

Bubble (6players left).
Same as late strategy, with the following exceptions:
-If 2people in a raised pot, fold everything (even AA) unless u have many chips and you can help bust a shorter stack without risking too much.
-if folded to your SB, push liberally.
-if folded to your BTN, push semi-liberally.

Considerations and theory.

Normal tourney/SnG strategy includes survival as one of the main considerations in every decision. Prize structure makes for chip accumulation another key consideration (aiming for higher prizes is +EV, while trying to fold till the bubble bursts is usually -EV). This is called the ladder principle.

In DoNs, survival is the ONLY consideration. It doesnt matter if you have 1 or 10k chips when the bubble-boy busts. That's it, you won.

Thus, chip accumulation is only necessary for survival. Enough to survive is all you need. The ladder consideration does not apply since there is only one step to this ladder.

Thus, speculative hands have ZERO value. Not less than usual, but zero, since any chips spent trying to hit are wasted chips.
Not only will you hit seldom, but when you do, besides being paid less (people will/should tend to stack off less with this structure reducing implied odds) you will not have great use for the chips you gain when you do get paid. Again, finishing 1st or 5th pays the same.

In DoNs, if you risk chips to steal in the later stages, you should push. This is because you want maximum folding equity.
The DoN structure rewards those who avoid confrontation. The more other people fight, while you watch from the sidelines, the more you gain. This is a concept already useful in normal tourney/sng structures. More so here, since the more people bust the closer you are to winning maximum without chip accumulation considerations.
Thus, by playing push/fold poker, you avoid most confrontations and have no more decision making. Villains are the only ones put to the test.
Worse thing that can happen is to try and steal with a normal raise and someone pushes. You will have to fold all but AA or KK in this situation and will have lost some of your stack stupidly. Do not allow resteals!

Reads are important. Take note on who limp/folds and who limp/calls or traps with AA/KK.

If there is a chance that someone will bust on that particular hand, avoid all confrontation.
Example: HJ raises 3x in late stages, you have a mediocre stack on the btn. BB is the shortest stack. You hold JJ. You should fold.
This should be all too clear, since even against Ax you are still 1-2 to bust. Much better to let shorty face elimination.


I just won a DoN by folding every hand. Didnt get AA or KK, but did fold TT, AK, AQs... If i had played some of these hands, i may have lost, since people in this particular DoN were way too eager to stack off. In the end, i had 900 chips and made it. This goes to show how strategy is way different than normal SnGs. If i had made it 5th with 900 chips (3 BBs) in a normal one, i would be in trouble.

PUSHING HANDS (in order of quality)

-Big pairs (AA-TT)
-AK, AQ (suited or not)
-SCs
-Low pairs (99-22)
-Axs
-Kxs

Notice how SCs are higher than some other hands. This is well explained in Kill Phil theory. If you do get a call to your all-in, it will probably be by a big pair or a big ace. SCs fare better against this range than low pairs (big underdog vs big pairs and coinflip vs AK) or Ax (mostly 2-1 underdog vs big pairs and AK) since they are hardly ever dominated and fare decently even against AA.

Ok, let's hear it SnG maniacs!

[gingerwizard]

List of terrible, incorrect advice given in this thread (not exhaustive):

First 3 levels.
-Play only AA or KK. Whatever happens.
If raised and reraised to u, play only AA for a push. If 2 or more players all in, fold AA too.
-If u open, open big. 6 or 7x, or bigger if table plays that way. If there are limpers, just push.

-If 2people in a raised pot, fold everything (even AA) unless u have many chips and you can help bust a shorter stack without risking too much.
-if folded to your SB, push liberally.
-if folded to your BTN, push semi-liberally.

You also have SCs worth more to push with than SCs which is plain wrong.

First 3 levels, find out how big ICM tax is, take +$EV situations. If shoving AK is +$EV do it. Open folding QQ on the button is completely retarded. PLaying as suggested by strat will leave you slightly short later more often than not. Being the short stack is penalised even more in DONs than anywhere else and this should skew ICM, so this strategy is even more penalised by reasonable adjustments to the mathematics.

Late strategy: Push/fold as and when ICM dictates. If you have doubled up, and there are a couple of shorties, just fold everything (as ICM would tell you to, or as the appropriately skewed version should).

Survive by intelligent accumulation early (not pissing away equity to your opponents just because it's level 1,2,3), and by ruthless correct application of ICM late.

Just because the game has a fancy name and a different payout structure does not mean we cannot apply the usual mathematical tools to it. They offer up an abyss full of examples of how following this strategy will lose you money. Luckily Dons are forgiving to those that leak equity, in that you can play crap and give away all edges and do as the OP did and fold into the money.

Still just because you're losing less money in expectation making mistakes in DoNs, you shouldn't stop striving to maximise your earnings.

[asdpikas]

List of terrible, incorrect advice given in this thread (not exhaustive):

This is not intended as advise.
I am hoping to learn, and see where my thinking goes wrong. I do not claim to be some genius that has discovered the wheel here. By presenting a basic strategy, I hope to learn from you (who do know a lot more than me about this) how to better my game and thought processes.

You also have SCs worth more to push with than SCs which is plain wrong.

come again? Yes, obviously SCs are not worth more than SCs. They are equal. Did you mean something else?


Anyways, thanks for the other advise. Which I do take as advise, as i am by no means an expert here.

[GatorJH]

Really? Is there any value to these games at all from a poker perspective?

[gingerwizard]

Really? Is there any value to these games at all from a poker perspective?

No.

and OP I mean't lower PPs are worth more than SCs. Working out push ranges to likely call ranges via ICM and power tools or WIZ pretty much shows this true every time.

Unless the SC is AKs

[asdpikas]

Really? Is there any value to these games at all from a poker perspective?

To me, not so much besides thinking about concepts that may be applied in other games. But that is just me. Cause i do find them boring, not too challenging, and not really worth it to me personally in terms of $/h. They may be valuable to many other people, though.

I just thought about them lately, and posted my thoughts here to see what i can get from it.

[asdpikas]

Really? Is there any value to these games at all from a poker perspective?

and OP I mean't lower PPs are worth more than SCs. Working out push ranges to likely call ranges via ICM and power tools or WIZ pretty much shows this true every time.

Unless the SC is AKs

AKs is the best SC, indeed.

yeah, please take this with a grain of salt and be gentle with me. I didnt even bother to check most of these things. The point not being in the details, but in the thought process.

Again, thanks for the comments

[BennyLaRue]

I played a few of these and wanted to tear my hair out. It's like paying to play on the bubble, which I find to be the least interesting part of any MTT. Profit be damned.

[drmcboy]

To me, not so much besides thinking about concepts that may be applied in other games.

I didnt even bother to check most of these things.

fail


I'd download poker stove before you do anymore "thinking".

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

2,527,360,704 games 0.005 secs 505,472,140,800 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 66.220% 65.97% 00.25% 1667378936 6235850.00 { TT+, ATs+, ATo+ }
Hand 1: 33.780% 33.53% 00.25% 847510068 6235850.00 { T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s }


---


---

7,725,915,648 games 0.032 secs 241,434,864,000 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 57.607% 57.38% 00.22% 4433349816 17320722.00 { TT+, ATs+, ATo+ }
Hand 1: 42.393% 42.17% 00.22% 3257924388 17320722.00 { 99-22 }

[asdpikas]

To me, not so much besides thinking about concepts that may be applied in other games.

I didnt even bother to check most of these things.

fail


I'd download poker stove before you do anymore "thinking".

hmmm... thanks for the tip, what is poker stove? is that like a software thing? maybe i should download it like you say...

[asdpikas]

Ok, so now that we have established that i wrote a post in a math-focused-people's forum without getting the math right, I wouldn't mind some opinions on the rest...


....or just let the thread die away.

TY

[gingerwizard]

Dons are a purely "math" game. That's why they are dull as shite.

The rest took you too long to write IMO

[Chopper]

you guys, chill. he said he came here to learn. he never professed to be a DON God. and, yet, you insist on making him feel like he was born out the back instead of the front. geez, he is even thanking you after you flame him. civility, plz.

the strategy may not be perfect. but, its not awful, either. there is some good stuff in there. my guess is you guys didnt bother to read it through because you dont bother to play the DONs.

are they poker? no. are they easy money? yes. do they help your game? well, they've helped my bubble play. and, they have taught me more about ICM than i would ever have known otherwise. so, i say yes...they help. will they take you to the WSOP? hell no.

- play tight early.
- open up and steal blinds a bit in the middle.
- tighten up on bubble unless YOU are the shorty.
- pick on mid stacks.
- dont accumulate.....survive.

there, thats all you need to know. but, there are more subtleties to these.

and, ICM isnt the only governing factor in these. its just another fun term that "poker is only math" people like to throw around to make themselves sound more important. its important, sure, but its not the only thing to consider.

carry on.

[gingerwizard]

my flame was largely retaliation from another thread.

However, general strat guides are fine, but they can't say things that are just purely mathematically wrong.

E.g. only play KK+ early no matter what.

What other factors govern decision making in these chopper? Meta-game?

[asdpikas]

perfection is in the details?

sorry i got this wrong from memory when writing the post.

This is the Kill Phill rankings that i was referring to and (sorry again) got wrong from memory:

1. AA, KK
2. QQ, AKs, AK
3. JJ, TT, 99
4. AQs, 66-88
5. AQ, AJs, ATs
6. SCs KQs-54s
7. AJ, AT, KQ
8. 22-55, A2s-A9s, A7-A9, KJ, KTs
9. 1-gap SCs 64s-QTs, A2-A6
10. 2-gap SCs 63s-Q9s, K7s-K9s, Q8s, KT, QT, JT, K9, QJ

And, no, i cant bother to put stove txts in here. Sorry.

Gosh, you do have to apologize a lot in this part of FTR...

[drmcboy]

my point was that you are not learning anything about poker if you "don't bother" to "check" anything. Learning about poker is hard work. And if you still believe the old saw about scs having more equity than low pairs vs any logical range - which you can see is not correct in 5-10 minutes including the pokerstsove download process - you are not working hard enough.

Chopper I'm not sure if you read the other thread but OP thinks I am a tard and went on a three post rant about how stupid we all are.

[asdpikas]

my flame was largely retaliation from another thread.

However, general strat guides are fine, but they can't say things that are just purely mathematically wrong.

E.g. only play KK+ early no matter what.

What other factors govern decision making in these chopper? Meta-game?

please flame me on the other thread... I reaaaaally was trying to learn something on this one...

RE: other factors.

Reads are good i would guess. Stack sizes considerations (not only meaning M, but also deciding who to push around obv).

[gingerwizard]

stack sizes etc are taken into account by ICM. Gaining reads is not, but they are used to put opponents on ranges which are then used in ICM decision making calculations.

So "observation of player tendancies and translation into appropriate hand ranges in given situations" is not mathematical. That's in all forms of poker.

[Chopper]

i saw the other thread after i saw this one. so, sorry fo having incomplete info. that turned into a festival from which i thoroughly enjoyed.

ginger, i am a tard, too. but, from what i read in other places, some players are starting to say the ICM can lead you astray in these because it doesnt consider certain things.

what things? i dont remember. i'm sure player reads are always very important, if accurate. but, i think we all know of situations where ICM/math/whatever can dictate you throw your player read in the garbage just like your player read can throw ICM/etc in the garbage, too.

i would have to look to sound like i know WTF i'm talking about, but its at "the other place" in their thread. i think its towards the end, too. you guys would certainly understand it more than i would if you read it, too. if i come across it again, i will link it here so you guys dont have to do the legwork....but, dont hold your breath that i'll get it. i care about proving you guys wrong about as much as you care about playing the DONs for a living....lol. no doubt you know this area WAY better than i ever will. so, take it with a grain of salt.

i just dont like absolute-isms....and neither do you guys from what i have seen.

[Lance]

its time to come back to home (LHE) guys......we are not welcome here

[Chopper]

lol......no one said, "GET THE F*** OUT!" they just mentioned we may suck a bit. thats all.

FTR is rather friendly across the board. these guys' posts have helped me a lot, too.

[X] LHE guys start shit.
[X] poker players have egos
[X] great mix for good times

[drmcboy]

FWIW I assume people who make jokes about the holocaust have pretty thick skins so I was not too worried about offending OP. I have no problem with the AV but I can assure you others at FTR do not think it is funny.

[asdpikas]

hmmm...

just in case you are referring to the avatar...

Not for the first time, i'll say AGAIN it is comparing microsoft to nazis. This seems pretty clear to me. I really dont get where you people assume a joke about the holocaust.

I wont change my avatar for the sole reason of seeing people so centered in their own fears that when they see a symbol they will refuse to take the context into account and just bash away. They make me laugh in their shortsightedness.

[Nakamura]

1. AA, KK
2. QQ, AKs, AK
3. JJ, TT, 99
4. AQs, 66-88
5. AQ, AJs, ATs
6. SCs KQs-54s
7. AJ, AT, KQ
8. 22-55, A2s-A9s, A7-A9, KJs, KJ, KTs
9. 1-gap SCs 64s-QTs, A2-A6
10. 2-gap SCs 63s-Q9s, K7s-K9s, Q8s, KT, QT, JT, K9, QJ

Anyone else see a problem with this list? Apparently 54s is stronger than KJs! Well f*** me ..... apparently I've got things all wrong.

On a serious note, is this because opponents calling range interferes with 54s less than say KJs? e.g. if opps calling range is AK+, TT+. I would check this myself my poker books, and other belongings, are somewhere in the Atlantic Ocean at the moment.

======
OK, apparently there isn't much in it but KJs still comes out trumps, even if you expand opp's calling range to include a few more K-hands.

Hand 0: 29.988% 29.58% 00.41% 72933396 1008162.00 { KJs }
Hand 1: 70.012% 69.60% 00.41% 171622056 1008162.00 { TT+, AKs, AKo }

Hand 0: 28.744% 28.52% 00.22% 89859740 702266.00 { 65s }
Hand 1: 71.256% 71.03% 00.22% 223799664 702266.00 { TT+, AKs, AKo }

[asdpikas]

sorry, this is a typo, KJs is already in group 6, i'll fix my post

[Nakamura]

IMO there is a lot more 'wrong' with this list. Pushing 54s ahead of Axs hands is just silly. Plus there are a few other rankings I have an issue with.

FWIW I think Kill Phil was making generalizations about the order of hands, so that they would fit neatly in this chart. I'm certainly not taking that chart as gospel.

[Chopper]

this can be a cash game player's mentality in this "list." but, we are sort of trained to stay away from domination. i can only assume that you SNG players feel the same way? domination is the key, isnt it?

so, if facing a raise, do i want to call/push over with KJ or 78s? i understand that KJ makes a more powerful TP hand, but it can also be completely slaughtered by the hands that would raise. however, 78s is only smashed by A7, A8, and a couple others. granted 78s doesnt do well against 99-KK, either. but, when i think of a player's raise (if he's tight), i look at what could feasibly get UNDERNEATH his range, too.....if i am in a spot where i desperately need chips. and, the same really goes for me stealing against nits. i try to look more at what they will call with and try to avoid being dominated by those hands. of course, my first priority is on stealing, not calling.

i am not defending this list, per se. i am just trying to understand where the assembly could be coming from.....cash game mentality.

in these DONs, or later stages of SNGs, doesnt it become more about SD value and TP power. there is no room for any post-flop play, imo. so, i would rather hit a TP that is likely to stay that way instead of trying to play "big hand poker."

i would also move KQ to #5. #7 should be #6. and, shouldnt AX/KT+ also rank higher than sc's and 22-55?

[ChrisBCritter]

I really dont get where you people assume a joke about the holocaust.

wat? level?

The Holocaust, also known as haShoah, is the term generally used to describe the genocide of approximately six million European Jews during World War II, as part of a program of deliberate extermination planned and executed by Nazi Germany under Adolf Hitler.

Sound's like a "Final Solution" to me...

Oh, and LOL at where this thread has gone...

[asdpikas]

I really dont get where you people assume a joke about the holocaust.

wat? level?

The Holocaust, also known as haShoah, is the term generally used to describe the genocide of approximately six million European Jews during World War II, as part of a program of deliberate extermination planned and executed by Nazi Germany under Adolf Hitler.

Sound's like a "Final Solution" to me...

Oh, and LOL at where this thread has gone...

whatever, i know nothing i say will change the minds of people who think only in black and white/with us or against us/nuke other countries/allow torture/disregard human rights/let's all be religious extremists/dominate the world terms

[gingerwizard]

Well the AV is kind of funny and has obvious implications about the way windows works etc. However likening Microsoft's aggressive business strategy specifically to the holocaust is not. Particularly for those badly affected by the actions of the Nazis who maybe now work for microsoft or with microsoft products (I'm not a microsoft fan btw).

It seems to me that in doing so you are being insensitive to those that either lived through it or had family executed, and disrespectful to those whose lives were taken.

Intelligent people can understand your point, but nothing should ever be compared to genocide and it goes too far for many people's taste, including mine.

[Chopper]

i still dont see the big deal over the avatar/holocaust/genocide, etc. i know it was a horrible time. most black people in the US wont let us forget about slavery, either. i get it. but, its over. we need to move on and stop being so easily offended. if it is meant from a ethnicity/racial type of slam, then the person issuing the "joke" is an asshole. plain and simple.

but, does it affect me? not really. and, certainly not anymore. people will have their views.

one of my favorite lines from the movie Roadhouse is applicable here. during Patrick Swayze's rant about "being nice," Steve says, "Well, what if someone calls my mama a whore?" to which Swayze responds sarcastically, "Is she?"

words dont hurt. and, far too many people allow words to get the best of them.

[asdpikas]

Well the AV is kind of funny and has obvious implications about the way windows works etc. However likening Microsoft's aggressive business strategy specifically to the holocaust is not. Particularly for those badly affected by the actions of the Nazis who maybe now work for microsoft or with microsoft products (I'm not a microsoft fan btw).

It seems to me that in doing so you are being insensitive to those that either lived through it or had family executed, and disrespectful to those whose lives were taken.

Intelligent people can understand your point, but nothing should ever be compared to genocide and it goes too far for many people's taste, including mine.

well, i know in other places people have a thing with being politically correct. I for one, do not believe in that.
As for being insensitive to those that... bla bla bla... I guess then i am being insensitive to me, myself, my family and many people of my political beliefs, not that YOU would know anything about my personal history, right?
One thing is showing respect, which i may do more than u may imagine in different circumstances, and another is not to have the right to use icons/art as subversively as possible, with a revolutionary mind, against capitalist corporations.

[gingerwizard]

But should that art be displayed here on a poker forum?

Subversive art is fine. Free speech is fine. There are certain films that are so over the top horrific (like hostel) that some would argue they should never be made.

I'm fine with them being made as long as I have the right to choose not to watch them. If I choose not to view your subversive art, that should not conflict with my enjoyment of FTR.

I.e. your art is fine, but having it as your AV here is shoving it down peoples throats which is not

[asdpikas]

I do get your point gingerwizard, dont get me wrong...
Still, many women may not like seeing sexist avatars that abound here, other groups may dislike certain other avatars... so where do you draw the line? There will always be some people that are offended by certain images...
Should there be a thought police/censorship panel to decide what is fine and what is not?
If you allow avatar freedom, i wouldnt like for that freedom to be censored. If you dont, and ask users to select from preaproved FTR avatars, well, that's not my opinion of a good avatar policy, but at least all get the same.
I just dont like being abused because of my avatar, like i've been in the past (even through PMs) by people that have no idea about anything and just ASSUME the worst.
I could complain about certain avatars that i may dislike, but instead, i choose to ignore them and discuss mainly poker with the users that have them. If this were a political forum, i'd EXPECT such a controversy, but precisely because it isnt, i think it's uncool.

[gingerwizard]

Well at least I understand your avatar and understand what it is not.

I just think that a like must be drawn (because otherwise gore and/or porn could feature in avatars).

Is an avatar on a poker forum the best place for this?

[asdpikas]

Personally, i believe political/social/economic ideas shape everyone's life (on a day to day basis, even). I also believe an avatar is an image that the user chooses, most users choosing one that partially defines their ideas (whatever the context may be).
Thus, i dont like the line that goes "you shouldnt mix political/social/economic issues with...". If political/social/economic issues are a part of my life that i want to express through my avatar, how can you censor that?
If I choose to show a line of thought through my avatar, i dont really see what's wrong with that.
Indeed, there are some countries in the world where political/social/economic thoughts are censored. Happily, i don't live there.
Now, personally, i wouldnt censor ANY avatars, ever. But regarding how you mention porn/gore, i can't imagine those topics "partially defining"/"showing the line of thought of" any user.
Well, actually Cicciolina comes to mind. She did combine her being a porn actress with being an elected member of the Italian parliament.

[gingerwizard]

And what about if there are people of certain extremist groups or those that agree with their actions?

Say someone uses pictures of 9-11 or of the shot sri lankan cricketers in some way to suggest, in an avatar, that capitalism deserves everything it gets or something?

You still have no objection?

Come on! If I want to argue politics I go somewhere where the argue politics. I don't bring my own on here and ram them down your throat.

[Nakamura]

this can be a cash game player's mentality in this "list." but, we are sort of trained to stay away from domination. i can only assume that you SNG players feel the same way? domination is the key, isnt it?

so, if facing a raise, do i want to call/push over with KJ or 78s? i understand that KJ makes a more powerful TP hand, but it can also be completely slaughtered by the hands that would raise. however, 78s is only smashed by A7, A8, and a couple others. granted 78s doesnt do well against 99-KK, either.

um .... thread Hi-hack!

Bringing this thread back around to poker, obviously domination is really bad. It all comes down to opponents ranges. If your opponent has a tight range that includes many better Ks and Js, then calling with 87s is better.

Hand 0: 70.648% 69.89% 00.76% 1177550028 12803700.00 { 99+, AJs+, KQs, AJo+, KQo }
Hand 1: 29.352% 28.59% 00.76% 481749708 12803700.00 { KJo }

Hand 0: 66.912% 66.68% 00.23% 456710244 1581582.00 { 99+, AJs+, KQs, AJo+, KQo }
Hand 1: 33.088% 32.86% 00.23% 225048192 1581582.00 { 87s }

If you opponent has a wider range, of any pair and any broadway, then calling with KJo is better.

Hand 0: 54.927% 51.98% 02.94% 2146957968 121574538.00 { 22+, ATs+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, ATo+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo }
Hand 1: 45.073% 42.13% 02.94% 1739970204 121574538.00 { KJo }

Hand 0: 62.159% 61.76% 00.40% 981351460 6364016.00 { 22+, ATs+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, ATo+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo }
Hand 1: 37.841% 37.44% 00.40% 594938620 6364016.00 { 87s }

Given that most players are pushing wider than the second scenario (at least in the later stages of SNGs), this makes calling with KJo 'better' than calling with 87s. Cash games are different in that you will call and see many cheap flops with 87s, trying to bust out players who fall in love with AA or KK.

[Chopper]

thanks, nak.

however, i still dont clearly see where i would rather call a raise/push in a DON with either 78s or KJ, i can see your point. if i am short and close to the bubble, i am not really calling any raise unless i hold one of the big 4. but, i am pushing KJ before 78s. but, if its folded to me in CO with tight players, or midstacks, left to act, i am firing a pretty wide range.

my thoughts dont go much deeper than that atm. i guess i need to work on ICM situations more to see how far i can drop my range for both calling and pushing in various situations.

oh, and carry on the debate. its quite entertaining. me and nak can sprinkle in some pokah here and there...lol.

[asdpikas]

Naka,

kill phil authors give the thought that many people, in many circumstances (not all obv), will call all-in mostly with the big pairs/big aces. Thus, creating more domination issues for hands such as weak aces or KJ, KT, etc...

This happens a lot in DoNs where people aren't so eager to risk elimination close to the bubble with some "lesser" kinda hand, even if their hand is a favorite against the stealer's raise...

So, in this particular situation, what is your take on the pushing hand rankings? Which would you change? Which do you think would be good general calling ranges (given DoN structure) during bubble (average stack)?
Just looking for general guidelines/thoughts, here... I know a lot could be mathematically calculated, given specifics.

[Chopper]

not to sidetrack, asd, but people will also call with MUCH weaker AX hands than you may be assuming.....even in the face of elimination. its one reason these are still profitable.

i cant tell you how many times i push KQ or JJ just to have it called by anything from A3s-A8o. and, KQ sucks against a player that will call you off with any A.

and, as for what youre asking, your "pushing" and "calling" ranges have much more to do with relative stack sizes on the bubble, imo. then, on how wide your villain's calling ranges are. also, what raise will be most effective.....2X, 3X, 4X or shove. like you said, there are a lot of specifics. that makes it very difficult to pin specific holdings as "pushing" hands. it can be ATC or very tight.

like someone somewhere said, taking a flip (or even 60/40) on the bubble is a complete disaster MOST times. run some PStove (you do know what that is, right? ) and line up hands that are likely to wind up 60/40 or worse and i would almost discard them. you just dont want to volunteer yourself into such a situation, unless you are the shorty and need to gambool a bit.

remember, if you sit in 4th place, and stacks are close, you may need to push a bit wider than you would like. however, if you sit in 5th, but are still well ahead of 6th, you fold KK pre.

[Nakamura]

Damn Chopper, you beat me to the punch .... but I had to cut away in the middle of writing this to do something quick.

I'm not clear here whether we are talking about calling or pushing with these hands.

That said neither of these hands is a hand I want to calling with in a DON. The flat payout structure usually means you have to have a stellar hand to call with. Often calling with AA is incorrect. Sure, if folding this hand means the choice between having a shot at 1400 chips or folding and ending up with 200 (basically an unworkable stack), then the choice is obvious.

When it comes to pushing, cards are less important in DONs than regular SNGs. Position, FE and remaining chips are much more important in determining whether to push or not. Sometimes it's profitable to push 35o (when placing is in jeopardy), since you 'know' that your opp can't call profitably with any hand (watch out for the calling stations tho!).

At the end of the day this is a rather unsatisfactory 'it-depends-on-the-situation' answer.

[Chopper]

...Sometimes it's profitable to push 35o (when placing is in jeopardy), since you 'know' that your opp can't call profitably with any hand (watch out for the calling stations tho!).

here is a part of "theory" that should bear out, but doesnt too terribly often imo. yes, they should fold everything, but they dont. and, i am not talking about "stations" alone. i am talking about anyone that doesnt really have a clue. basically, your dead money players that dont realize that they are dead money. (i love those guys fwiw)

there isnt really a situation where pushing atc is profitable in these. again, there SHOULD be. but, too many players cannot let go of JJ+/AQs/AK to make it so. you push atc, you will get caught. do so in spots, but dont do so because "they cant even call w/ AA here." because you WILL get called and you WILL find yourself on the rail.

no matter the situation, you still need some basic starting hand requirements to steal no matter your stack size and opponent. and, they are generally higher than you may think because of the "heroes" out there looking to bust you out for the sake of it.

i'm just sayin'...

[Nakamura]

...Sometimes it's profitable to push 35o (when placing is in jeopardy), since you 'know' that your opp can't call profitably with any hand (watch out for the calling stations tho!).

here is a part of "theory" that should bear out, but doesnt too terribly often imo. yes, they should fold everything, but they dont. and, i am not talking about "stations" alone. i am talking about anyone that doesnt really have a clue. basically, your dead money players that dont realize that they are dead money. (i love those guys fwiw)

there isnt really a situation where pushing atc is profitable in these. again, there SHOULD be. but, too many players cannot let go of JJ+/AQs/AK to make it so. you push atc, you will get caught. do so in spots, but dont do so because "they cant even call w/ AA here." because you WILL get called and you WILL find yourself on the rail.

no matter the situation, you still need some basic starting hand requirements to steal no matter your stack size and opponent. and, they are generally higher than you may think because of the "heroes" out there looking to bust you out for the sake of it.

i'm just sayin'...

Point taken, but when opps are calling with AJ+ there is little point in preferring JTs over 35o. I tend to disagree with you that this is not a play profitable when the alternative is to wait for an above average hand and pushing this over 3-4 opps.

[asdpikas]

naka, in writing op, i was thinking of pushing those hands, not calling

couple hands from today:

bad call? no reads

$50/$100 No Limit Holdem
10 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($965.00)
UTG+1 ($1275.00)
UTG+2 ($2030.00)
MP1 ($980.00)
MP2 ($1705.00)
MP3 ($1765.00)
CO ($1965.00)
BTN ($1320.00)
Hero (SB) ($1455.00)
BB ($1540.00)

Pre-flop: ($150, 10 players) Hero is SB
5 folds, MP3 bets $1,765, 2 folds, Hero calls $1,405, 1 fold

Flop: ($3,320, 2 players)

Turn: ($3,320, 2 players)

River: ($3,320, 2 players)

Final Pot: $3,320
Hero shows:
MP3 shows:

MP3 wins $3,320 ( won +$1,555 )
Hero lost -$1,455


Illustration of what chopper was saying.
I dont think i did bad to push here, but i believe villain's call to stink bad. Am i right?

$75/$150 No Limit Holdem
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($2610.00)
UTG+1 ($1020.00)
CO ($1725.00)
Hero (BTN) ($1005.00)
SB ($7140.00)
BB ($1500.00)

Pre-flop: ($225, 6 players) Hero is BTN
3 folds, Hero bets $1,005, 1 fold, BB calls $855

Flop: ($2,085, 2 players)

Turn: ($2,085, 2 players)

River: ($2,085, 2 players)

Final Pot: $2,085
Hero shows:
BB shows:

BB wins $2,085 ( won +$1,080 )
Hero lost -$1,005

[Nakamura]

Hand 1 = fold ... You are most likely up against at least Ax here. There is the possibility of underpairs, but racing in a DON is almost always -EV. Fold and look for spots where you can be the first to raise AI.

Hand 2 is difficult because the sb has such a big stack, he could probably call with ATC. BB should call tight. Calling with QJ is about as bad as you get. No doubt he is a losing player. I still push this hand all day long.

[asdpikas]

Hand 1 = fold ... You are most likely up against at least Ax here. There is the possibility of underpairs, but racing in a DON is almost always -EV. Fold and look for spots where you can be the first to raise AI.

yeah, you are right. I was quite comfy to risk it all there.

Hand 2 is difficult because the sb has such a big stack, he could probably call with ATC. BB should call tight. Calling with QJ is about as bad as you get. No doubt he is a losing player. I still push this hand all day long.

Yeah, i did worry about SB, but here i'm a bit more desperate. I could not believe BB's call o_0

[Chopper]

here's where me and nak will disagree. and, i am sure i am the one that is wrong. but, i look at villain in hand one. open pushing can be much different than a raise, RR, and push over. open pushing is done rather wide by complete tards. if his stats suggest his elevator doesnt go all the way up, i have no problems w/ QQ in that case. if hes a reg, or a nit, though, i drop it pretty quickly and wait for better spots.

80/20's suck no matter the situation. 60/40's are ok-ish early, but blow on the bubble. if you hit your 60/40 and double, you cruise to the money most times w/o playing but one or two more hands where you can really wait for things to set up perfectly. however, if you bust out, the tourney went so fast, you just load up another DON and cash in that one....barely affecting your hourly winrate.

hand two is an "ok" push. i am not ecstatic about it because you are 65/35 with alot 80/20 with less than has you 20/80 and you are flipping with alot of crap....like QJ. i consider that stuff heavily when pushing mid pairs. however, you were short and cant wait for the other shorty all day long. but, i think you could be a bit more patient since he is liable to push something like AQ and flip for his life soon, too. again, relative stack size.

however, the call was absolutely pathetic. this guy cripples himself right out of the tourney if he loses....which he will if you arent a complete fool with your shoves. you have him dominated so often there and he is flipping with you at best. and, he puts his tourney life, on the bubble, on the line in that spot? when he can wait both you and the other guy out?

thats just horrible, imo.

[asdpikas]

And what about if there are people of certain extremist groups or those that agree with their actions?

Say someone uses pictures of 9-11 or of the shot sri lankan cricketers in some way to suggest, in an avatar, that capitalism deserves everything it gets or something?

You still have no objection?

None whatsoever.

"If you believe in freedom of speech, you believe in freedom of speech for views you don't like. Goebbels was in favor of freedom of speech for views he liked. So was Stalin. If you're in favor of freedom of speech, that means you're in favor of freedom of speech precisely for views you despise"

Noam Chomsky

[Nakamura]

Hand 0: 36.083% 35.35% 00.73% 352285896 7303236.00 { 88+, A9s+, ATo+ }
Hand 1: 63.917% 63.18% 00.73% 629668560 7303236.00 { QQ }

[asdpikas]

There are certain films that are so over the top horrific (like hostel) that some would argue they should never be made.

Is it good? I do like some horror/gore from time to time, but preferably if it is intelligent or totally whacked out dumb funny. In betweens usually dont do it for me.

[Chopper]

Hand 0: 36.083% 35.35% 00.73% 352285896 7303236.00 { 88+, A9s+, ATo+ }
Hand 1: 63.917% 63.18% 00.73% 629668560 7303236.00 { QQ }

so, do you think this is still a bad call? or do you sort of see the point about early 60/40 flips? its one little concept that has made me a little more profitable in these. correct or incorrect, it allows me to come out of my nitty shell a bit more often and learn what these fags will shove with on occasion.

[Nakamura]

Hand 0: 36.083% 35.35% 00.73% 352285896 7303236.00 { 88+, A9s+, ATo+ }
Hand 1: 63.917% 63.18% 00.73% 629668560 7303236.00 { QQ }

so, do you think this is still a bad call? or do you sort of see the point about early 60/40 flips? its one little concept that has made me a little more profitable in these. correct or incorrect, it allows me to come out of my nitty shell a bit more often and learn what these fags will shove with on occasion.

I definitely see your point. I have thought considerably about playing 40+ of these at a time and 'flipping' a lot of hands. For the strategy to work you would also need to win loads of uncontested pots as well. Personally, at the moment, I tend to load up around 15 of these and play them at the same time. I find playing tables at different blind levels confusing and -EV for me.

EDIT: Looking at this problem from an ICM perspective, I think the answer is clearer. Although you will win this hand over 60% of the time, winning this hand does not guarantee finishing ITM (I think you are indirectly implying this). At best, calling here is probably break-even for your bank-roll.

[Chopper]

youre right, i am implying you will finish in the money if you win the hand. i say that because when you go over 3k in chips, you should rarely finish out of the money in these. you can play very tight and almost fold your way in.......again, most times.

i think this is one area where ICM can take control and lead people a bit astray. but, i have always contended i am more of a "feel" player than a "math" player. and, have received a ton of criticism for that stance.

by nature, flipping is neutral EV. that isnt arguable. but, when you take a lot of these you give yourself one bigger advantage, even if only one guy notices. its like playing LAG poker. it gets your big hands paid. taking 60/40's will lead you to more 70/30's and 80/20's, imo. the nitty players running 9/6 that fold 97% of their blinds late will rarely get paid off, and they tend to "bubble" out a lot or just eek their way itm. thats fine, but they almost always find themselves struggling with chips, and getting picked on, just to squeak into 5th place. i dont like that, myself.

i would rather have a chip stack of 2k and pay more attention to my other tables where i am short-ish. my approach requires winning a lot of uncontested pots. and, i do. a lot of times, i find myself at 1200 or 900 chips, because of an earlier chance i took, but, i feel that i battle back very well because i win a lot of uncontested pots here, too. i think largely because i know who i can pick on most times and who i should avoid. but, my approach is also rather high variance, too. my shark graph looks a bit like a roller coaster ride for these things. but, it seems to work for me.

i like the different perspectives we are talking about here a lot. thanks for sharing because you are a bit more of a "math" guy than i am from what i can tell.

fwiw, i only 12 table these things in "sets" because i totally agree that having different tourneys running at different levels gets very confusing and takes away from the seemingly easy decisions these tourneys tend to bring about.

[taipan168]

i think this is one area where ICM can take control and lead people a bit astray. but, i have always contended i am more of a "feel" player than a "math" player. and, have received a ton of criticism for that stance.

Can you describe what you mean by "feel" and why it is superior to "math"?

by nature, flipping is neutral EV. that isnt arguable.

I don't agree with this at all. Could you please explain your logic behind this statement? Flipping may be neutral EV in a cash game but mostly it's -EV in a tournament due to the ICM effect.

but, when you take a lot of these you give yourself one bigger advantage, even if only one guy notices. its like playing LAG poker. it gets your big hands paid. taking 60/40's will lead you to more 70/30's and 80/20's, imo. the nitty players running 9/6 that fold 97% of their blinds late will rarely get paid off, and they tend to "bubble" out a lot

Assuming that other players are noticing how you play can often be an erroneous assumption, particularly at low buyins. Many of these guys are just playing their cards without regard to what else is happening on the table around them.

or just eek their way itm. thats fine, but they almost always find themselves struggling with chips, and getting picked on, just to squeak into 5th place. i dont like that, myself.

Ummm, aren't we talking about DoNs? Who cares if you squeak into the money with 1 chip or roar in with 10,000 chips?

[frreshprince]

my head hurts from reading how bad your strategy is

[asdpikas]

my head hurts from reading how bad your strategy is

thank you for such a constructive post! I sure learned from it! (never to read your posts...)

[Chopper]

i think this is one area where ICM can take control and lead people a bit astray. but, i have always contended i am more of a "feel" player than a "math" player. and, have received a ton of criticism for that stance.

Can you describe what you mean by "feel" and why it is superior to "math"?

i didnt say "feel" was superior. and, i've never been able to articulate what i mean. but, i'll try again to do my best. "feel" is more read based. it doesnt go against math. but, i dont let math override decisions if i "feel" a certain way. villain may put out a goofy line in a cash game, and it makes me "feel" he has me beat OR he is bluffing. i will trust my intuition over the math a lot of the time. LHE has taught me that i am wrong way more often than i used to think, but i still trust my instincts a lot. i am not saying its correct, and wont ever convince anyone that believes math over intuition that i am right. by math people, i am referring to HUD-bots that think 32/17/3 is a "read" and those that 20-table and cant be bothered with making real reads because they simply dont have the time to make the decision. (we all fall into this category, too. i know this sounds "holy-er than thou") but, what is a "feel" player? one that is too lazy to put in the work to determine the EV of a situation, so he goes with the what he "feels." i do lots of math during a session, hand, tourney, whatever. again, though, this response is long because i dont know how to articulate it very well.

by nature, flipping is neutral EV. that isnt arguable.

I don't agree with this at all. Could you please explain your logic behind this statement? Flipping may be neutral EV in a cash game but mostly it's -EV in a tournament due to the ICM effect.

what i mean is: 50/50's always come out 50%. i know that you bust out in tourneys when you lose, but its still 50/50. you cant dispute that you have a 50% chance to win the hand. thats why i said its not arguable. you may talk about ICM, but i am talking about the hand only, not the situation. and, youre right, its more of a cash game concept i suppose and obviously thats where my mindset is coming from.

but, when you take a lot of these you give yourself one bigger advantage, even if only one guy notices. its like playing LAG poker. it gets your big hands paid. taking 60/40's will lead you to more 70/30's and 80/20's, imo. the nitty players running 9/6 that fold 97% of their blinds late will rarely get paid off, and they tend to "bubble" out a lot

Assuming that other players are noticing how you play can often be an erroneous assumption, particularly at low buyins. Many of these guys are just playing their cards without regard to what else is happening on the table around them.

i often agree with you. but, just because you play lower limits does NOT mean hardly anyone pays attention. some do. and, you need to know who those players likely are. its equally as gross an assumption to think that low limit players ALL suck. and, that they only play their cards. and, they dont pay any attention. while its 80% correct, its never 100%. you get snippits of conversation in the chats of any poker table to see that people are occasionally trying to make reads....or that they actually have reads on a player. they open their keypads too often. i really dont like the attitude that higher stakes players have towards lower stakes. these games are tougher....period. more players pay attention than 3 years ago. i'm not saying even 50% of them do, but MORE do. poker in general is tougher than it was 3 years ago. it doesnt matter what stakes you play. and, the borderline arrogance of these "assumptions of my assumptions" frankly insults all of our intelligence. (no offense personally, tiapan, just making a general comment towards the attitudes of higher stakes players towards lower stakes players)

or just eek their way itm. thats fine, but they almost always find themselves struggling with chips, and getting picked on, just to squeak into 5th place. i dont like that, myself.

Ummm, aren't we talking about DoNs? Who cares if you squeak into the money with 1 chip or roar in with 10,000 chips?

yes, we are. and, yes, you are right about 1 chip paying the same. but, there is a much lower chance you are getting paid if you sit on 200 chips and 5th place still has 1000. the others will either gang-pile you or just wait you out....as they should. and, all the 200 chip guy can hope for is AA v KK between two dumbasses. however, if you see it coming and get a bit more aggressive 7-handed, or against the nitty blinds (frankly, that feel they will eek in), or with a decent squeeze from which you had reads, etc, you will keep your chip stack in better shape. therefore, you wont feel the pressure to push rags as quickly and can buy yourself more time to grab a real hand or seize a strong situation to steal the blinds. too many nitty players will sit and fold their SB when theyve been folded to and never stick up for themselves because "ICM tells me i have XX amount of equity and i dont have that kind of edge with TT here"... bla bla bla. while mathematically, they are right, they will find themselves out of the money a little more often, imo, than if they KNEW the other guy cant call a raise either and took the chance of buying themselves another orbit of time to wait out the 30/10 players on midstacks that clearly dont have a clue how to play a bubble. but, that kind of goes back to my "feel" vs "math" thing that i cant articulate.

i see more of the HUD-bots and massive multitablers running ROI's of 7 in these things. if they had time, or took the time, to make actual reads on players, THEY would carry a higher ROI because they would realize ICM doesnt dictate every bubble decision. sometimes "feel" will override ICM correctly because ICM wont take into consideration how often that nit folds. so, in another sense, i guess it comes down to the fact that i take the easy way out with "feel" and a HUD-bot tends to take the easy way out with "math" by relying too much on terminology like ICM and equity share.

the really good players, like you, taipan and nak and ginger, blend both the math and instincts. and, you probably blend it better than i do, which is why you are on higher playing fields and still get better results. that i wont dispute.

[asdpikas]

i do believe reads are underrated in these, especially at the micros. They can make your life pretty easy. I have no idea, though, as to how much reads should affect math, and viceversa. Wouldn't mind hearing some thoughts on this.
Image, I am a bit more unsure about.