Pocket Jacks vs. Two All-ins

[tuuk2]

We're 18 hands in here with 9 players remaining. I pick up pocket Jacks (and I'll be honest, I just don't know how to play them) and raise it up. I'm perfectly content to win the blinds here, but I would call one all-in. But when the second all-in comes in, is there anyway I can think my Jacks are still good?

The odds are about 3-1 but with two all-ins I think my jacks have pretty much lost any value here. However, I am open to suggestions.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $3.00+$0.40 Tournament, 50/100 Blinds (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG (t1680)
UTG+1 (t1250)
Hero (MP1) (t1495)
MP2 (t2140)
MP3 (t1500)
CO (t1050)
Button (t1435)
SB (t2310)
BB (t2140)

Hero's M: 9.97

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with J, J
UTG calls t100, UTG+1 calls t100, Hero bets t400, 4 folds, SB raises to t2310 (All-In), 2 folds, UTG+1 calls t1150 (All-In), Hero???

[gingerwizard]

2 calls preflop and your stack make this an easy shove pre.

As played, I think lay it down, BUT I'd need to stove it to know for sure if you're not pot committed

[TLR]

I agree with Ginger, push preflop

As played I think you have to lay it down

[drmcboy]

I'd call, I think there is a pretty good chance UTG+1 has like anything, but worst case 3/1 is what we need. If we were closer to the bubble I could see the fold.

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

6,267,087,288 games 10.672 secs 587,245,810 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 36.943% 32.96% 03.98% 2065536396 249731676.00 { QQ+, AKs, AKo }
Hand 1: 36.943% 32.96% 03.98% 2065536396 249731676.00 { QQ+, AKs, AKo }
Hand 2: 26.113% 25.98% 00.13% 1628146152 8404992.00 { JJ }

[gingerwizard]

If we like those ranges ICM tax is at least 3% and possibility of a bust from UTG+1 increases the value of folded chips. This would make it a fold

[tuuk2]

2 calls preflop and your stack make this an easy shove pre.

As played, I think lay it down, BUT I'd need to stove it to know for sure if you're not pot committed

This is where I need help. Why is this an easy shove? So that I don't have to make the call/fold option if I'm re-raised? Or is it because I want the best chance for fold equity? I always have trouble here and I want to make sure I'm doing the right thing, even if it doesn't work out always.

I'm not saying you're wrong or that I disagree, but I'd like to hear a little more about your reasoning so I better understand.

[drmcboy]

If we like those ranges ICM tax is at least 3% and possibility of a bust from UTG+1 increases the value of folded chips. This would make it a fold

sure, I think those ranges are lol tight though, especially for UTG+1 who has QQ+ almost never imo. Also ICM cannot account for the huge value of our stack size, we should be able to dominate the table with 50/100 blinds. My point was just that the worst case scenario is pretty close.

[fulksy]

i can see why you would push JJ cause of the trouble post flop, but in line with tuuk said would this be good standard raise with QQ+, cause either someone shoves over great, calls which you can pretty much shove any flop, or everyone fold and you win right their. is that resonable?

[Kijjo]

I'm not making an argument for calling here. I hate getting screwed in the crossfire in an allin donkfest. But I think the ranges you posted were too tight.
I'm not saying these should be the correct ranges (posted below), but saying by considering their stack sizes and the level of SnG we're talking about, you could come up with a scenario where you gotta make this call.
At the end of the day tuuk, you were the one sitting at the table. Was everyone really tight? Do you think either of these guys just got impatient? Was anyone possibly tilting from a previous hand?

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

42,158,910,024 games 94.202 secs 447,537,313 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 36.411% 35.16% 01.26% 14821139076 529319764.00 { TT+, ATs+, AJo+ }
Hand 1: 26.075% 25.07% 01.01% 10568331084 424425076.00 { 77+, A6s+, KJs+, ATo }
Hand 2: 37.514% 36.68% 00.83% 15465659016 350036008.00 { JJ }

[tuuk2]

It was tight enough that I thought I could take it down with a 4x BB bet. There weren't a lot of limpers usually and most of the pots up until that point had been pretty small. I believe my bet had been the biggest pre-flop bet to that point.

[drmcboy]

two EPs limpers with ~15 BBs pretty much precludes any notion that these guys are tight or good at poker.

Add all PPs to KJ's second range and it's about where I would put it. You see people do this with pps all the time. Also KQo. I I would remove at least QQ and KK, I guess you can leave AA although I would be tempted to just put one combo.

[frreshprince]

i would've played it the same way you did. unless your table as been playing super aggressive and are all on tilt or somthing. JJ really isnt a good hand. they're going to have over cards or a higher pair atleast. and now you're flipping a coin for your tournament life. I'd prefer to lay this down.

UTG could really have anything from Aces down and was hoping for somone to raise just to make the play he did, and small blind is atleast sitting on two high cards or else theres no reason for him to push. you made the right play.

I wouldn't have raised all in preflop either, although you only have 15xBB theres no antes and the blinds really arent terrible and you'll see better cards.

[St8ofN8]

With a stack that size, I'm pushing with JJ, but rarely calling all in. I'm probably behind either way, but I feel more comfortable taking a stand.

[baudib]

I can't see how you could ever fold this without a precise read that one of these guys has QQ+. Yeah, sometimes one or both will but you'll see 88 or AJ or worse from both a lot of times.

[rong]

2 calls preflop and your stack make this an easy shove pre.

As played, I think lay it down, BUT I'd need to stove it to know for sure if you're not pot committed

This is where I need help. Why is this an easy shove? So that I don't have to make the call/fold option if I'm re-raised? Or is it because I want the best chance for fold equity? I always have trouble here and I want to make sure I'm doing the right thing, even if it doesn't work out always.

I'm not saying you're wrong or that I disagree, but I'd like to hear a little more about your reasoning so I better understand.

M less than 10, JJ only wants one caller max, and there's enough in the pot to be reasonably happy with a steel. Anything other than a preflop push leaves you open to what happened. If you shoved, you probvably get one caller max which gives you a good shot. Against 2 callers, you're in trouble here. As played, easy fold with anything less than AK or QQ. You gotta push JJ preflop with an M less than 10 and chips already in the middle.