Donk move or decent play?

[tuuk2]

4-handed, I'm 2nd smallest stack. In summary, I raised before the flop from the button, villain called then went all-in after the flop. Villain has been doing that a lot over the last few rounds. Calling and then c-betting with success. My thought is that I've got the draw with about a 33% chance of hitting by the river (I believe that's the correct percentage). If I fold, I'm down to 4th place. I don't feel pot-committed, but we've been playing 4-handed for 57 hands at this point and I don't think folding into the money is an option. Even if it was, I don't want to make it to third place with virtually no shot of going any higher. Also, I probably wouldn't make this move early in the tournament since the times I doubled up wouldn't be worth the risk of getting knocked out early.

PokerStars Game #24984473488: Tournament #141131886, $3.00+$0.40 Hold'em No Limit - Level VI (100/200) - 2009/02/15 18:42:16 ET
Table '141131886 1' 9-max Seat #8 is the button
Seat 1: hafidem (1495 in chips)
Seat 3: Bluuzman Tim (5550 in chips)
Seat 4: remix85 (4090 in chips)
Seat 8: tuuk2 (2365 in chips)
hafidem: posts small blind 100
Bluuzman Tim: posts big blind 200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to tuuk2 [7s 8s]
remix85: folds
tuuk2: raises 400 to 600
hafidem: calls 500
Bluuzman Tim: folds
*** FLOP *** [9h Ks 3s]
hafidem: bets 895 and is all-in
tuuk2: calls 895

{Results edited out by taipan168}

[taipan168]

Firstly, don't post results - I edited them out.

On the hand, I would fold preflop, suited connectors play best in multiway pots when you can see a cheap flop but potentially win a monster hand. Also, with your stack at 11.5x BB I would shove or fold preflop and I don't think that this is a good shove unless the blinds are very very tight (which is unlikely at a $3.40 tourney).

As played, I haven't run the ICM on this but you're getting better than 2.5 to 1 pot odds with a draw that's about 35% to hit on the river plus there's a small chance that 7s or 8s will be good outs for you - I would call. However, this hand illustrates quite well the problem of standard raising when you're so short - you price yourself in to call due to the pot odds but if you could wind the clock back you'd prefer not to be in a position to be obliged to make a pot odds call.

[tuuk2]

So to recap, the mistake I made here was standard raising pre-flop with two potential callers? Obviously I didn't want a call here, just wanted to steal the blinds and antes. The texture of the game 4-handed was essentially one raise, a call and then a c-bet on the flop that would take the pot. I guess my thought was I could outplay either of the blinds after the flop. That thought was dismissed when villain went all-in.

[taipan168]

Yes, your stack is too short to standard raise. You need to shove or fold only with this stack size - if you want to steal, you need to maximise your fold equity by shoving since you can't play a flop with such a short stack.

Also, there is no scope for "outplaying them after the flop" with such a short stack since you're pretty much pot committed once you raise and get called.

[gingerwizard]

^ +1

You have to fold these preflop because a shove is incorrect (big stack BB sees to that) and standard raising leads to this too often

[tuuk2]

I appreciate both responses. In the future then I should look to exercise more patience here. I'm not at a point where a shove is the appropriate move and I'm probably not getting anyone to fold with a 3x BB raise here, especially at my stack size. I think that this area is one of my (many) leaks. I just feel that I need to do something so as to not get blinded out, but I end up playing "scared" poker instead and make these kind of dumb moves.

[drmcboy]

unfortunately with these stack sizes playing scared poker is exactly what you should be doing, you should just be even more scared! welcome to SNGs.

[frreshprince]

once you had already made the raise to 600 and got called. once he went in for 900 you pretty much had no choice but to call. it depends on how the table had been playing and if people were seeing alot of flops or if people were raising and stealing everytime for me to decide exactly what to do here. with a tight table i can see where your raise to 600 comes in maybe a little more would've stolen them preflop. or maybe a call and try to connect on the suited connectors. other than that if theres not alot of money or people going into the pot i would toss em away.

[taipan168]

with a tight table i can see where your raise to 600 comes in maybe a little more would've stolen them preflop.

No, if you want to steal here you need to shove. As you said, if you get called you end up pot committed even with a marginal draw, middle pair or similar hand.

or maybe a call and try to connect on the suited connectors.

You can't ever flat call in this spot. SCs play best in a multi-way pot when you can see the flop for cheap (and 200 chips out of a 2300 stack is not cheap).

other than that if theres not alot of money or people going into the pot i would toss em away.

Shove or fold is the only option here and shoving is not a +EV move in almost all circumstances.

[frreshprince]

sorry professor poker

[taipan168]

sorry professor poker

Dude, any and all opinions are welcome here, mine is definitely only one of them!

[gingerwizard]

sorry professor poker

Don't be a douche

[WillburForce]

sorry professor poker

don't be a twat. You're lucky that people like Tiapan and Ginger are here to help people. and judging by your post on the hand, you are one of the people who need help.

[frreshprince]

i didnt say your opinion wasnt welcome just like mine should be welcome. but all u did was point out everything i said and said somthing else. you're not necessarily right.
if the tables playing tight and seeing alot of flops theres no reason why you cant flat call and try to hit somthing if you want to play aggressive. but if you want to sit back and just wait for the 10 best hands all day then go 4 it and do that.

[taipan168]

i didnt say your opinion wasnt welcome just like mine should be welcome. but all u did was point out everything i said and said somthing else. you're not necessarily right.
if the tables playing tight and seeing alot of flops theres no reason why you cant flat call and try to hit somthing if you want to play aggressive. but if you want to sit back and just wait for the 10 best hands all day then go 4 it and do that.

No, I'm not necessarily right. But I did point out why, in my opinion, you cannot limp here and hope to hit something nice. If the table is playing tight and if you really really want to play this hand then shove it to steal the blinds.

If you call, how often do you think you hit something on the flop that you're prepared to commit your whole stack with? Probably not 1 in 11.5 times assuming opp stacks off every time you do (and you aren't beat by an even better hand). Plus, if somebody raises preflop then you have to toss your hand away meaning that you just burned 200 chips for nothing.

[Deuce Blue]

i didnt say your opinion wasnt welcome just like mine should be welcome. but all u did was point out everything i said and said somthing else. you're not necessarily right.
if the tables playing tight and seeing alot of flops theres no reason why you cant flat call and try to hit somthing if you want to play aggressive. but if you want to sit back and just wait for the 10 best hands all day then go 4 it and do that.

This his why his mom made him move to Bel Air. Didn't have anything to do with the fight.

This is a fold pre, call as played. Nothing else you can do. If you weren't up against the other shorty you could fold it when bet at and pray for a better hand although it still wouldn't be a +EV play but might still give you a chance. But folding to the other shorty is just wayyyyy -EV. But obviously when down to around 10 BB just shove to steal is the real lesson.

[Jack Sawyer]

must be something in the water lately that is causing so much internet drama

[Kijjo]

I think this is a great example of how the 10 big blinds rule is misconstrued by many players. I know early on I was always reading "if you're down to 10, you're in push/fold territory". So what about 11, 12 or 13? Unfortunately all you can do with 12 bb's is call or shove and let's all say it together, "CALLING SUCKS!"
This where you have to have a plan for your hand and follow the math real quick before getting involved.
Another note, I prefer to try to attack the #2 chip guy in these situations (just my opinion). Reasoning: most shorties gonna call my allins more wide than anyone else, cause he's dying for a double up, chipleader is the next most likely to call because if he takes a shot at you and misses, you trade chipstack situations and he's still alive and not even the shortstack. The second in chips has the least to gain and the most to lose at this point, so I'm waiting for playable hands where I can try to push at him.

[Poker Orifice]

Not a good spot or good hand to be making a play with at this stage of the game. You're on the bubble, two big & two small stacks.. you're marginally ahead of other small stack.. but you are ahead.
My advice is that you really have to think ahead here in the hand. ie. if you're actually thinking of putting in a raise here on BTN with this, you will be priced in to call if he shoves back on you.... are you going to want to call??... One really needs to keep this in mind prior to spewing off chips.
IMO it's a shove/fold here and I would more likely opt to fold. Aside from the math, it does also have to do with my table image and how active I've been on bubble (have I been folding for a few orbits, etc.).
Suggestion above.. to limp in here.... terrible imo. Just spewing off the bit of Fold Equity you still have here.
Ditto on bein' grateful to posters like Taipan & Ginger. I've picked up a ton of great stuff from you folks and has also generated alot of thinking about the game (which is always a good thing... except for when one is trying to fall asleep at night).

[frreshprince]

i would call everytime.

[taipan168]

i would call everytime.

If you're talking about on the flop after opp shoves, so would I. If you're talking preflop, then you just found yourself a leak in your game for the reasons discussed above.

[lockpull]

I would say that if you were just trying to take the blinds down then shove or fold. Preferably fold, you have enough chips to wait for a better spot and the small blind is just low enough and possibly desperate enough in chips to call with PP, Axs, KJ+.

[Poker Orifice]

In this type of situation I'm always considering other stack sizes (obviously) but also how the hand (bet) will affect my stack if things go not according to plan (in other words, I'm looking ahead and taking things into consideration).
Here I'm folding SC and am waiting for a better spot. If I do decide to get involved I'm shoving but again in this case I'm taking a big passament.

[uscheese]

he actually is professor poker...that's the funny part...