good or bad call?

[asdpikas]

Step 6 at stars (2 EPT packages + $1650 for 3rd)

antes have come in, table has now become very active stealing and restealing.

No Limit Holdem Tournament
$2000+$100
7 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG (3296)
UTG+1 (5490)
MP (2880)
CO (4822)
BTN (7334)
Hero (SB) (2949)
BB (3229)

Blinds: 150/300 Ante 25

Pre-flop: (625, 7 players) Hero is SB
4 folds, BTN goes all-in 7,309, Hero goes all-in 2,774, 1 fold

[flomo]

out of my league
but i would have folded there

[GatorJH]

you are better off pushing with 88 than calling a push.

[taipan168]

With that flat payout structure I would most probably fold this.

[asdpikas]

thx, but could u explain why?
I thought it may be a mistake, even tho i'm way ahead of his range, but cant really put it into words

what would u call with?

[taipan168]

Actually, I just ran it in SNG Wiz (which you should definitely have if you are playing these stakes) and it is a call unless button is very tight - break even is when Button shoves about 16% of hands and from your read he is almost certainly shoving wider than that. A lot of this has to do with the payout structure which is more heavily weighted towards first place than I thought.

[mcatdog]

Actually, I just ran it in SNG Wiz (which you should definitely have if you are playing these stakes) and it is a shove unless button is very tight - break even is when Button shoves about 16% of hands and from your read he is almost certainly shoving wider than that. A lot of this has to do with the payout structure which is more heavily weighted towards first place than I thought.

Don't forget that SNG Wiz tells you to fold unless your edge exceeds a threshold. The highest steps are super hard and OP more than likely has very little edge if any. 16% is crazy tight, I'd guess it's closer to 40%. I think 66 would be fairly close here, anyone who would consider folding 88 has no business playing these stakes.

[mcatdog]

you are better off pushing with 88 than calling a push.

So? I'd rather get AA than 88 but that's not the situation we find ourselves in.

[asdpikas]

so....

call it is? i mean, maybe i was focusing too much on the prize, but i still made the call based on my idea of ranges. I'm not sure it felt right, but maybe i'm just results oriented.

I figure I can rule out AA, KK, AK, cause he pushes his big stack, not allowing us shorties to try restealing. I would consider he may push any pair, any ace, big Ks, QJ, and some high SCs

My 88 should have his range crushed, but i'm really no expert in SnGs, ICM, etc...

Oh, and i'm an LHE player, mostly.

Thanks for the help, much appreciated

[taipan168]

Yes, I think you have to call here

[sftbllfvr]

i am by no means an expert,but i think you made the right move.

[drmcboy]

you are better off pushing with 88 than calling a push.

So? I'd rather get AA than 88 but that's not the situation we find ourselves in.

qf , come on gator

Also OP don't feed the sharks

[gingerwizard]

Not sure slightly top heavier payout affects this one. I think ICM fold here. Probably JJ+,AK+ required to call, nice one for WIZ if you can hook it up right.

Interested to read responses

[gingerwizard]

Ok so WIZ says call, easy call. Wonder if this is same in standard 9-man.

As you can see my ICM is not good enough to be playing $2000 sngs. As yours isn't either OP, don't do it!

[drmcboy]

Tai's SNG Wiz is wrong?

[gingerwizard]

Tai's SNG Wiz is wrong?

to be fair, he may not have factored in weird payout

[GatorJH]

you are better off pushing with 88 than calling a push.

So? I'd rather get AA than 88 but that's not the situation we find ourselves in.

I never said I needed AA here. I will admit that I didn't run this through SNGWIZ and the payout structure and level of play may make this a call, but with stack sizes being somewhat even I personally wouldn't make this call with 88; TT yes but 88 no. I just think there is still enough time to wait for a better spot.

I think your comment about OP's edge combined with the payout structure make it an easy call in this particular situation. I just think in the heat of the battle I may have gone weaktight and folded.

[mcatdog]

Also OP don't feed the sharks

PS sometimes gives out Step 6 tickets as prizes in a freeroll. I'm guessing that's what happened here. If so, OP should have taken a couple of weeks to learn to play SNGs, before he used his ticket.

I just think there is still enough time to wait for a better spot.

This is a mindset that might be appropriate in low-stakes SNGs but it's totally wrong against a tough lineup of pros. As a thinking player, if you know you're outclassed, your best bet is to get the SNG over with quickly and gamble in every OK spot that comes up. The longer it lasts, the more value you're losing on average to players who are better than you.

[GatorJH]

Agreed. I can wait for better spots at the $11's and $22's because I have a decent edge in those games. In this one you are right in that low or mid stakes players who make it to them should gamble more when it is a close decision.

[asdpikas]

Also OP don't feed the sharks

PS sometimes gives out Step 6 tickets as prizes in a freeroll. I'm guessing that's what happened here. If so, OP should have taken a couple of weeks to learn to play SNGs, before he used his ticket.

To that, drmcboy, and the rest of you tards.

I'm sorry.

What makes you think that?

I may be mainly an LHE player, but i am a professional poker player.
I know about ICM, and can play SnGs OK. Maybe that is why i bought my Step 1 ticket and made it to Step 6. Maybe that is why i always got my money in with the best hand.

I am not saying i'm an SnG expert, but the way you assume i'm a total donk just baffles me.

I am a winning professional player not only in LHE, but lower NL, HORSE, Stud and OH8. For this, i've studied every book out there, including tourney/SnG strategies.

Again, by no means I assume i'm a great SnG player. If I was, i wouldnt be playing LHE for a living, I'd play SnGs. But i'm not a fucking donk newbie.

FU all

[gingerwizard]

I think mcat was maybe being a little harsh in his "learn to play sngs," because this spot is not an obvious ICM one (tai also got it wrong at first).

I think drmcboy was right in saying don't feed the sharks though.

If you're playing in a tournament with a $2000 buyin, regardless of how you got there, you should know the right play here instantly. If you don't you should have the tools and the ability to work out what you should have done after the game without posting here.

Because neither of those were true, you were the biggest fish at the table and hence feeding the sharks. FWIW, you wouldn't survive a long stint at 5% of the buyin with your knowledge of ICM as is, and the others are right to advise you of this.

[asdpikas]

I think mcat was maybe being a little harsh in his "learn to play sngs," because this spot is not an obvious ICM one (tai also got it wrong at first).

I think drmcboy was right in saying don't feed the sharks though.

If you're playing in a tournament with a $2000 buyin, regardless of how you got there, you should know the right play here instantly. If you don't you should have the tools and the ability to work out what you should have done after the game without posting here.

Because neither of those were true, you were the biggest fish at the table and hence feeding the sharks. FWIW, you wouldn't survive a long stint at 5% of the buyin with your knowledge of ICM as is, and the others are right to advise you of this.

How you assume neither of those were true, again baffles me. Maybe i shouldnt have posted the hand before doing the math myself, that doesnt mean i cant fucking do it.

[taipan168]

Tai's SNG Wiz is wrong?

to be fair, he may not have factored in weird payout

I used the Step 6 payout structure in Wiz which is very heavily weighted towards 1st place (which is where I made my initial mistake since for some reason I thought that the payout structure was a lot flatter than it actually is). From memory it was something like 69, 6, 6 and so on.

[gingerwizard]

I think mcat was maybe being a little harsh in his "learn to play sngs," because this spot is not an obvious ICM one (tai also got it wrong at first).

I think drmcboy was right in saying don't feed the sharks though.

If you're playing in a tournament with a $2000 buyin, regardless of how you got there, you should know the right play here instantly. If you don't you should have the tools and the ability to work out what you should have done after the game without posting here.

Because neither of those were true, you were the biggest fish at the table and hence feeding the sharks. FWIW, you wouldn't survive a long stint at 5% of the buyin with your knowledge of ICM as is, and the others are right to advise you of this.

How you assume neither of those were true, again baffles me. Maybe i shouldnt have posted the hand before doing the math myself, that doesnt mean i cant fucking do it.

It would never occur to a great/good player to post such an obvious "do it yourself" hand. You have to be a great player to win at this level.

A great player knows the answer. A good player finds the answer straight after the event and kicks himself for not knowing the answer at the time. You posted the hand.

I'm sure you're great at LHE and everything else, but from your DoN strategy it is clear you only know what ICM is, and perhaps how to do the calculations. You certainly don't use it or think about applying it as is clear from your 1st reply to this thread, when Tai suggested fold.

thx, but could u explain why?
I thought it may be a mistake, even tho i'm way ahead of his range, but cant really put it into words

what would u call with?

It's an ICM calc, it takes a few seconds with WIZ, longer by hand, and you're talking about "being ahead of his range" and not being able to put it into words.

Anyone knows ICM, even as barely as I do, can tell that you do not use it or fully understand it's implications for every in-game decision.

Now we're all learning here, my ICM game aint great etc etc, but you just come out attacking our best players. "I'm a pro, you're all retards, blah blah blah." Put the wang away, stop pretending to know about concepts you've not fully grasped, and listen to mcat and drmcboy because they actually make great money playing tournaments and know what they're fking talking about.

[asdpikas]

LOL dude,

again, i do not pretend to be a SnG expert, i am repeating myself here, but i guess thats what is needed.

AGAIN, I do not play SnGs/Tourneys constantly, and DO NOT make a living at them.

Now dont turn this around, I'm the one attacking here?

I never implied anyone here was a donk, just like they did with me, which i didnt appreciate. Because, obviously, a donk like me MUST have gotten that step 6 ticket as a present, right?

Obviously, I post here to learn, just like other ppl post in the LHE section to learn.
We dont treat them like that.

To end this, i will just say that i have absolutely NO DOUBT that these people know a hell of a lot more than me about ICM, SnGs, tourneys, etc...

That is not the point here. Thank you

[gingerwizard]

Also OP don't feed the sharks

PS sometimes gives out Step 6 tickets as prizes in a freeroll. I'm guessing that's what happened here. If so, OP should have taken a couple of weeks to learn to play SNGs, before he used his ticket.

To that, drmcboy, and the rest of you tards.
...
FU all

Looks like I incorrectly turned this around. You're being attacked and we are all completely unjustified in calling someone who plays a $2000 SNG without understanding ICM a donk.

And FU stands for flowery umbrellas

[GatorJH]

FU = Furman University

[asdpikas]

Flying Unicorns

[GatorJH]

Are those even still around?

[asdpikas]

Are those even still around?

I hope not! they are evil!

[drmcboy]

OP, don't feed the sharks

[asdpikas]

OP, don't feed the sharks

yeah, i'm sorry for spending $7.50 on a step 1 ticket and making it to the $2k step 6. I'll know better next time than to throw away half my daily cigarettes money like that...

[drmcboy]

what you did was spend time in ~5 tourneys gathering up 2k to give it away. You could have spent this time playing a game you have an edge in or learning about SNGs so you could have an edge there. Steps are a total suckers game unless you're able to buy out at your level of competency. Even if you just want to gamble X dollars for a chance at a seat in a big tourney you are much better off playing bigger sats rather than steps.

[Chopper]

[X] quality thread because OP has both balls AND thick skin...lol.

do Steps tickets expire? can you sell them? i dont think stars lets you "unregister" them.

lets pretend you have family in Rio and want a free plane ride to South America. would you take a shot if you made it that far on $7.50....regardless of your ICM knowledge? i would.

feed the sharks? hmmmm....jamie gold, chris moneymaker, etc. i know, i know they arent brutal players compared to me. but, i still think "chip and a chair" applies if its a once in a lifetime thing. thats kind of what poker is built on, yes? if virtually dead money never visited $2000 SNGs, they wouldnt be spread now would they?

[gingerwizard]

[x]Chopper is secretly grinding the $2k sngs and doesn't want us tapping the glass
[x]Giving money to sharks is better than buying fags with it

[asdpikas]

[x]Chopper is secretly grinding the $2k sngs and doesn't want us tapping the glass
[x]Giving money to sharks is better than buying fags with it

LOL

dont know about Chopper vs steps, but u are right about cigs

[mcatdog]

Also OP don't feed the sharks

PS sometimes gives out Step 6 tickets as prizes in a freeroll. I'm guessing that's what happened here. If so, OP should have taken a couple of weeks to learn to play SNGs, before he used his ticket.

To that, drmcboy, and the rest of you tards.

I'm sorry.

What makes you think that?

I may be mainly an LHE player, but i am a professional poker player.
I know about ICM, and can play SnGs OK. Maybe that is why i bought my Step 1 ticket and made it to Step 6. Maybe that is why i always got my money in with the best hand.

I am not saying i'm an SnG expert, but the way you assume i'm a total donk just baffles me.

I am a winning professional player not only in LHE, but lower NL, HORSE, Stud and OH8. For this, i've studied every book out there, including tourney/SnG strategies.

Again, by no means I assume i'm a great SnG player. If I was, i wouldnt be playing LHE for a living, I'd play SnGs. But i'm not a fucking donk newbie.

FU all

What exactly was wrong with my post? I implied that you're decent at some other form of poker but you probably aren't that good at SNGs, and based on this post, I was right. I didn't say anything insulting, so why the venom?

Also, being a donk is all relative to the people you're playing against. Even if you can as you said, "play SNGs OK" but you are not a "great SNG player," then you might as well be a total donk newbie in a Step 6, the regulars in them are just that good.

[drmcboy]

feed the sharks? hmmmm....jamie gold, Chris Moneymaker, etc. i know, i know they arent brutal players compared to me. but, i still think "chip and a chair" applies if its a once in a lifetime thing. thats kind of what poker is built on, yes? if virtually dead money never visited $2000 SNGs, they wouldnt be spread now would they?

my point exactly. Are you advising OP to be the fish? I don't understand this, it seems like he is your friend.

do Steps tickets expire? can you sell them? i dont think stars lets you "unregister" them.

He chose to play the first one. Again, you're just taking money from other micro players to give it to someone else. Why not play in a format you can keep it?

If you want to gamble it up to go the WSOP, set aside some roll and play LHE starting below your BR and going above your BR and if you win at XXX level use that to buy a seat. If that sounds crazy, trying to do it in a format you don't understand is even crazier.

[asdpikas]

what you did was spend time in ~5 tourneys gathering up 2k to give it away. You could have spent this time playing a game you have an edge in or learning about SNGs so you could have an edge there. Steps are a total suckers game unless you're able to buy out at your level of competency. Even if you just want to gamble X dollars for a chance at a seat in a big tourney you are much better off playing bigger sats rather than steps.

indeed, i spent a few hs playing those.
I also spend a few hs every 1-2 weeks playing a home NL game with my friends just for fun where i could be studying or grinding. My point being, i grind LHE a few hours a day, and study a bit (mostly LHE yes) and then have my free time where sometimes i may choose to waste $7.5 just for fun. Poker is not only work. I already mentioned I dont play SnGs for a living, maybe i should specify: I played the steps for fun.
Other ppl may spend their $7.5 on a cinema ticket or whatever else, and i wont go tell them they should've spent their time and invested their money in study/grind.

[mcatdog]

OP, don't feed the sharks

yeah, i'm sorry for spending $7.50 on a step 1 ticket and making it to the $2k step 6. I'll know better next time than to throw away half my daily cigarettes money like that...

Wow I missed this post...I take it back. If this is how you think then you have a warped understanding of EV and you can't possibly be any good at bankroll management, or poker in general. You might have started off with $7.50 but once you reached Step 6 the ticket was worth $2K, not $7.50. It would've been smart to download SNG Wiz, and spend a couple of weeks studying SNGs so that this hand would be second nature to you, and you could've increased the value of your Step 6 ticket by hundreds of dollars.

This is like you as a limit player saying, I won 5K this month so I'm going to play 100-200 against Matt Hawrilenko, if he beats me out of my 5K then I didn't lose anything.

Edit: basically what doc said.

If you want to gamble it up to go the WSOP, set aside some roll and play LHE starting below your BR and going above your BR and if you win at XXX level use that to buy a seat. If that sounds crazy, trying to do it in a format you don't understand is even crazier.

[asdpikas]

Also OP don't feed the sharks

PS sometimes gives out Step 6 tickets as prizes in a freeroll. I'm guessing that's what happened here. If so, OP should have taken a couple of weeks to learn to play SNGs, before he used his ticket.

To that, drmcboy, and the rest of you tards.

I'm sorry.

What makes you think that?

I may be mainly an LHE player, but i am a professional poker player.
I know about ICM, and can play SnGs OK. Maybe that is why i bought my Step 1 ticket and made it to Step 6. Maybe that is why i always got my money in with the best hand.

I am not saying i'm an SnG expert, but the way you assume i'm a total donk just baffles me.

I am a winning professional player not only in LHE, but lower NL, HORSE, Stud and OH8. For this, i've studied every book out there, including tourney/SnG strategies.

Again, by no means I assume i'm a great SnG player. If I was, i wouldnt be playing LHE for a living, I'd play SnGs. But i'm not a fucking donk newbie.

FU all

What exactly was wrong with my post? I implied that you're decent at some other form of poker but you probably aren't that good at SNGs, and based on this post, I was right. I didn't say anything insulting, so why the venom?

Also, being a donk is all relative to the people you're playing against. Even if you can as you said, "play SNGs OK" but you are not a "great SNG player," then you might as well be a total donk newbie in a Step 6, the regulars in them are just that good.

yeah, you are right, sorry about my pride jumping up, so let's bury the hatchet and just figure i took the whole donk thing in a very bad way. My bad

[asdpikas]

OP, don't feed the sharks

yeah, i'm sorry for spending $7.50 on a step 1 ticket and making it to the $2k step 6. I'll know better next time than to throw away half my daily cigarettes money like that...

Wow I missed this post...I take it back. If this is how you think then you have a warped understanding of EV and you can't possibly be any good at bankroll management, or poker in general. You might have started off with $7.50 but once you reached Step 6 the ticket was worth $2K, not $7.50. It would've been smart to download SNG Wiz, and spend a couple of weeks studying SNGs so that this hand would be second nature to you, and you could've increased the value of your Step 6 ticket by hundreds of dollars.

This is like you as a limit player saying, I won 5K this month so I'm going to play 100-200 against Matt Hawrilenko, if he beats me out of my 5K then I didn't lose anything.

Edit: basically what doc said.

If you want to gamble it up to go the WSOP, set aside some roll and play LHE starting below your BR and going above your BR and if you win at XXX level use that to buy a seat. If that sounds crazy, trying to do it in a format you don't understand is even crazier.

hmmm... again, this was just a fun experiment for me, and i did try contacting stars support to see if there was any way i could exchange my step 6 for ANYTHING. Maybe I should've studied for a couple months just to have a better chance, you are right.

[Chopper]

[x]Chopper is secretly grinding the $2k sngs and doesn't want us tapping the glass

is it totally self-depreciating that this made me laugh rather hard?

oh, yeah, i consider Asd a friend. go into the LHE forum and you will see that there are about 4 of us that post uberregularly. maybe a few more than 5 over here, but whatevs.

i just thought it funny to see all the "here comes the noob, lets rip him" type of responses at first. then, i saw the other thread with the "FU Tards" in it, and i understood. i dont condone the whole FU stuff for many reasons. and, this isnt a time i would defend it, either.

but, dont get me wrong. i'm not over here just to butt-buddy with Asd. i play a shitton of the DONs and i do fairly well with them. i saw the DON thread and gave it a read because i am always looking for info on them, too. i would prefer no one play them because they are all nitted up as of right now anyway.

and, i wont ever say that DONs are poker. but, there are aspects of them that can sharpen other parts of your game.

/ramble.

[GatorJH]

asdpikas,
I have to say that I am pretty impressed that you took some serious bashing (and rightfully so imo), listened to what the others were saying and admitted the instances where you were wrong.

Stick around my friend and I think you will do very well here.

[asdpikas]

It happens to me, I know i may sometimes let my ego/pride take control. I'd rather it not happen, but if it does, i'll try to make it right and apologize for it and learn from it. I also recognize where the knowledge is. I wouldn't play poker for a living if i didn't at least try to fix my mistakes (which obviously are a lot)

Dont worry, i'll be staying to learn from u guys if u dont mind

[FlowJoe]

Definitely outside my bankroll management in terms of buy-in, but I'm folding here. I will be sick and second guessing a little to myself but stack is enough to play prudently and still take it down without gambling on a race push. Leave the BS alone and wait, would be MY motto!! Anyway, I'm here to learn too!!
GL and Hittin' FLOPS
Peace,
FLOW

[fulksy]

just wondering with those step sngs, can you wait and play step4, 5,6 etc when ever you want or is it continuous, it was mentioned a couple times and was said that you can't sell it, but didn't hear is you can you hold off and study for a bit.

[bjsaust]

Personally I didnt see any insults or anyone calling him a noob. Noone on this site plays $2k SNGs. Thats what a step 6 is, and the guys grinding them...well, they grind $2k+ SNGs for a living. To suggest that anyone on this site should avoid them isnt insulting, its smart.


The way steps work is you basically win tokens. The steps run as SnGs, you can buy in at any level for either cash or a token for that level. So if I play a lvl 2 and get through, I get a token for a lvl 3 and I can buy into any lvl 3 step sng using that token. Doesnt have to be the next one or anything. I could decide to play 1 per week until I'm out.

The essense of what folks are saying, is that buying into a step 1 and playing all the way through is equivalent to buying into a $6.50 and if you win spending your entire win on the highest level you can afford, and if you win that do it again for the highest you can now afford and so on. At some point you're playing a $2k SnG. Sure you started with only that $6.50, but you now have $2k. The only difference is that with the real $ you can stop and take your winnings and apply some BRM principles. In steps you cant.





Thats not to say I havnt dabbled myself, but its pure gambool.