Right time to Push?

[tuuk2]

Lately, I'm been listening to the advice of FTR members which boils down to "don't let your stack get so low that you don't have any FE". I'm getting more and more comfortable going all-in with weaker holdings when I'm first to act and my stack is short.

However this hand has me thinking. Would it be better to go all-in with this hand at this time, or since I'm almost equal with another stack to wait for a better situation. Since I'm on the bubble here, I think it's even more troubling for me to work through the answer.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $3.00+$0.40 Tournament, 100/200 Blinds 25 Ante (4 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (SB) (t1430)
BB (t1660)
UTG (t7220)
Button (t4690)

Hero's M: 3.58

Preflop: Hero is SB with J, 7
2 folds, [color=#CC3333]Hero???

[Projectp]

I think i fold this one and wait for a better spot. BB will fold a lot here, but i think you run into Ax enough to not shove here. Have you shoved yet since bubble play started?

[tuuk2]

I think i fold this one and wait for a better spot. BB will fold a lot here, but i think you run into Ax enough to not shove here. Have you shoved yet since bubble play started?

Yes. I've shoved a few times, but never had to show down.

[drmcboy]

download SNG wiz or similar program

[Poker Orifice]

I don't understand the title of the post 'right time to call'. I'm shoving here myself but it also is dependent upon prior play on the table, my image, etc. Do I want to wait, looking for a hand to shove into the big stacks?? Is my opponent likely to shove when he's in SB next hand (what's his play been like). Do I think I can actually wait?
I'm probably just shoving it in here.

[fulksy]

pretty sure thats a shove, but i would wait to here from taipan, ginger, etc. their way better at icm bubble play

[GatorJH]

tuuk, Poker Orifice and fulksy,
If you are even remotely serious about playing SNG's you need to go get SNGWIZ or SNGPT's so you can review hands like this one. Determining shove and call ranges in this stage of a SNG is absolutely critical and leaving the calculations to "Ginger, Taipan, etc" because they are better at icm is just plain dumb.

I have run this through SNGPT and there is a very clear move here, I am just not going to tell you in the hopes that you start figuring these easy ones out by yourselves.

[tuuk2]

tuuk, Poker Orifice and fulksy,
If you are even remotely serious about playing SNG's you need to go get SNGWIZ or SNGPT's so you can review hands like this one. Determining shove and call ranges in this stage of a SNG is absolutely critical and leaving the calculations to "Ginger, Taipan, etc" because they are better at icm is just plain dumb.

I have run this through SNGPT and there is a very clear move here, I am just not going to tell you in the hopes that you start figuring these easy ones out by yourselves.

Download SNGWIZ - Done.
Download SNGPT - Done.

Analyzing now...

[kstarm]

Might also want to try:
http://www.icmpoker.com/Applicator.aspx

Its online and allows ~5 free calculations a day. I haven't tested it much but might be worth a look

[tuuk2]

Gator, if I am someone who plays mainly SNGs, would I be better off investing in SNGWiz or SNGPT instead of HEM or PT? Serious wouldn't be the word I'd use for my level, but I am getting up to about 8-10 sngs a week and I'm trying to increase this as my work and family allow.

[drmcboy]

yes, if you are not playing a lot of tables I would say the ICM tools are better than the tracking stuff. Probably even with a lot of tables

[rong]

Yeah definitely ICM software.

I only used the free trial, but the abillity to analyse my games afterwards and see where I missed pushes and where I pushed inappropriately.

Since using that, I analysed maybe 40 or 50 games and my push/fold game improved bu a huge amount, as has my itm%.

I don't intend to buy it, but just having it for the free period was enough to make a huge difference.

And to test myself as I don't have an ICM calculator anymore, I'd say that hand is a push by a countrymile. M of less than 4 & in the small blind, I'm pushing ATC here.

[GatorJH]

yes, if you are not playing a lot of tables I would say the ICM tools are better than the tracking stuff. Probably even with a lot of tables

I completely agree. In fact, there are quite a few times where I don't even load HEM when playing one or two SNG's at a time.

[Poker Orifice]

tuuk, Poker Orifice and fulksy,
If you are even remotely serious about playing SNG's you need to go get SNGWIZ or SNGPT's so you can review hands like this one. Determining shove and call ranges in this stage of a SNG is absolutely critical and leaving the calculations to "Ginger, Taipan, etc" because they are better at icm is just plain dumb.

Actually I'm not that serious about sng play. If &/or when I might choose to be, I'll definitely take that advice (have checked them both out in the past).
I play maybe a couple per day, none at all, or sometimes a half dozen or so. Playing in the $6 to $11's and only playing 2 at a time it is purely recreational (although I do like to win... umm.. no.. I 'have' to win, lol).
Up to this point I just use a HandReplayer & Pokerstove when reviewing a game and most often have made the right play. Having only played around maybe 750 to 1,000 sngs, it is not quite second nature but perhaps getting closer to it for a recreational player.
I've also read every piece of literature on the game that I could get my hands on, including Moshmann's book with pages being worn out. In other words, I'm familiar with the game but not real serious at the same time.
My preference is for mtt play and I invest most of my time in that.
Thanks again for the advice though. If I consider getting more serious I'll definitely pick one of them up.

[taipan168]

I think i fold this one and wait for a better spot. BB will fold a lot here, but i think you run into Ax enough to not shove here.

Sorry to be harsh but this is ridiculous advice. How often exactly do you think you run into Ax considering BB has a random hand since he hasn't acted? If you were BB, what range of hands are you calling with (particularly considering that we have BB almost covered so if he calls and loses he's pretty much dead), what % of hands does that represent and therefore what % of the time is opp folding? Even if opp does have a hand in the call range, what % is J7o to win against that range? What proportion of your stack do the chips already in the pot represent if you take it down uncontested?

[Projectp]

Well im glad you said that because i think i dont push enough here. I think i just get scared of running into any A, K, or Q. If im BB im calling fairly wide here, but my range would not include anything weaker than J7o. I didnt see the ante, so that makes 400 chips in the pot and i can see why its a shove. In a game right now i think i would raise to 400, and im sure thats a bad move in as many ways.

[fulksy]

ran out of my free trial and waiting tell i build my BR high enough before i purchase it, getting close, but gator i totally agree. but did down load it on another computer and your pushing ATC here if i entered it right

[bjsaust]

This is an incredibly easy push. I'm surprised to see anyone saying fold here. This is super simple basic ICM stuff guys.

[taipan168]

In a game right now i think i would raise to 400, and im sure thats a bad move in as many ways.

I don't mean to pick on you, but that is a very bad move:
- If you get called and hit a J or 7 on the flop you may well be beat by a better hand;
- If you get called and do not hit a J or 7 on the flop, you are way too short to c-bet the flop and not be pot-committed; and
- If you get shoved over you have to fold and have burned 400 chips (almost 30% of your stack) for nothing.

I would rather fold here than donk min raise

[Marbleboy]

So this is an easy shove then??


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2.00+$0.20 Tournament, 150/300 Blinds 40 Ante (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG (t29436)
MP (t17710)
CO (t31073)
Button (t10435)
SB (t18315)
Hero (BB) (t8710)

Hero's M: 12.62

Preflop: Hero is BB with K, A
3 folds, Button bets t1200, 1 fold, Hero raises to t4000, Button calls t2800

Flop: (t8390) 10, J, 7 (2 players)
Hero bets t4670 (All-In), Button calls t4670

Turn: (t17730) 8 (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: (t17730) J (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: t17730

Results in white below:
Button had J, A (three of a kind, Jacks).
Hero had K, A (one pair, Jacks).
Outcome: Button won t17730

[flomo]

what is the payout structure?

[taipan168]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2.00+$0.20 Tournament, 150/300 Blinds 40 Ante (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG (t29436)
MP (t17710)
CO (t31073)
Button (t10435)
SB (t18315)
Hero (BB) (t8710)

Hero's M: 12.62

Preflop: Hero is BB with K, A
3 folds, Button bets t1200, 1 fold, Hero raises to t4000, Button calls t2800

Flop: (t8390) 10, J, 7 (2 players)
Hero bets t4670 (All-In), Button calls t4670

Turn: (t17730) 8 (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: (t17730) J (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: t17730

Results in white below:
Button had J, A (three of a kind, Jacks).
Hero had K, A (one pair, Jacks).
Outcome: Button won t17730

Firstly - this is the wrong forum - anything above 2 tables goes in the MTT forum. Secondly, I would have just shoved over the first time around rather than raising half my stack. I'd only do this with AA and maybe KK.