All-in or fold here?

[tuuk2]

I'm having second thoughts about how I played this hand. I've got pocket jacks early in a $3.40 10-man Turbo SNG. I think my raise pre-flop was standard. Does anyone push all-in pre-flop here? I think it's too early for that and the only calls I get are most likely ones with overcards so I'm flipping for all my chips.

After the flop is where I have the question. Do I call the all-in on that board, or do I just fold it and wait for a better opportunity?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $3.00+$0.40 Tournament, 15/30 Blinds (10 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG+1 (t1380)
UTG+2 (t1990)
MP1 (t1470)
MP2 (t1290)
MP3 (t1477)
Hero (CO) (t1465)
Button (t1258)
SB (t1670)
BB (t1500)
UTG (t1500)

Hero's M: 32.56

Preflop: Hero is CO with J, J
2 folds, UTG+2 calls t30, MP1 calls t30, MP2 calls t30, 1 fold, Hero bets t270, Button calls t270, 4 folds, MP2 calls t240

Flop: (t915) 9, 4, 5 (3 players)
MP2 bets t1020 (All-In), Hero ???

[gingerwizard]

Monster raise there 9xBB!!!! I don't know. I probably make it more like 180 and I think shove is overkill.

Still as played, and with the action before, what hands open shove this board?

[TLR]

Given it is the $3.40 with limpers ahead I think the big raise is fine, you will almost always get 1-2 callers.

I would call the shove, you would see FD, 9x or worse way too often

[Kijjo]

your raise was on the large side
to the shove preflop idea - no
as ginger asked, what hands shove allin on this flop and how many of them can you beat? I would say on your really really lucky day you'll catch an A9 here, maybe an Axc semi-bluff. A whole lot more hands would be the "beating your butt" kind.

[flomo]

the pot is 915, i would expect quite a few hands to push with 2 active players behind
most likely 2 big cllubs

[drmcboy]

fist pump insta call.

this is a lower PP that wanted a good board almost always, 9x sometimes, a bigger PP or set almost never, draw on occasion but probably not as much at a $3.

Kijjo I hope you are not folding over pairs getting 2/1 very often because you're giving money away. It doesn't even matter what $ level you're at, as you go up you will see less 9x or 77 here but a lot more semi bluffs.

[gingerwizard]

as ginger asked, what hands shove allin on this flop and how many of them can you beat? I would say on your really really lucky day you'll catch an A9 here, maybe an Axc semi-bluff. A whole lot more hands would be the "beating your butt" kind.

Well that's not the kind of answer I asked for. WHAT hands shove this flop given the preflop action? That's all I asked.

[gingerwizard]

fist pump insta call.

^ this.

Can you really see QQ+ limp CALLING pf to all that action?

Does a set open shove in a $3.40 when there is a massive chance the pf raiser is going to cbet such a safe board?

This is almost always a retarded draw semi bluff.

[flomo]

excellent spot for taking notes on villian

[tuuk2]

I agree that note taking would have been nice, but we're only about 7 or 8 hands in there so I don't have anything on him. Here's what I think.

I don't put him on trips because I would expect him to check and raise me after I c-bet. Certainly he could be on a Flush Draw, and that's most likely in my mind. He's semi-bluffing here. Other problem is the player yet to act behind me. Does that change your view as to how you act or does the thought of him going all-in just sweeten the deal?

[Kijjo]

drmc serious? 9x with a steep raise preflop (I could see A, maybe K, but that's it)?
guess I'm crazy, 'cause looking at how early you are in the game, I'm thinking folks are playing some actual cards here. I guess with the huge pot sitting out there, you would see draw bluffs, but what else? Folks really shove with 77 here?
If dude has AcKc or KcQc - he's 55% to win the hand. If he's Axc, you've got the lead, but not by much (4%).
Baby set that doesn't realize he should slowplay? AA-QQ that doesn't want to let people draw out?

If I were first to act, I'd be shoving JJ, but gotta say I'd have to have a good feel for the villain to call this. Guess that's why I often get into the bubble with a smallish stack, cause I'm not excited about putting my game on the line for this kind of call.

[GatorJH]

Kijjo, this is a $3.40 and I bet there are AT LEAST 5-6 total donks at this table who think aggression is king. Yes, you may be up against a set that spazzed out, but there are also many cases (especially in these low buy in SNG's) where villains see this flop and think it missed OP's hand so they shove to force maximum pressure.

If you are not willing to committ to JJ on a board like this then you are better off just limping in and playing for set value.

[Kijjo]

I guess I might be wrong.
I agree odds wise I should be happy to put my $ in here.
I think the majority of these players play their cards. I think we're giving most of them too much credit when we say they're total donks, but then reason out that the pot is too high a % of their stack, that they have two folks playing behind who will probably bet, so they'd rather put the pressure on them, etc. etc.
Donks think one of two things when they shove - "i like my cards" or "i can make them fold". Sure you'll catch some bluffs here and be in the lead chip-wise early in the game, but is it often enough that it's worth getting KO'd on a table full of fish?
Oh well, mark it down, another one of Kijjo's leaks.

[drmcboy]

If you are not willing to committ to JJ on a board like this then you are better off just limping in and playing for set value.

very true

I think the majority of these players play their cards. I think we're giving most of them too much credit when we say they're total donks, but then reason out that the pot is too high a % of their stack, that they have two folks playing behind who will probably bet, so they'd rather put the pressure on them, etc. etc.

you should restate this because it's hard to follow.

early means nothing. Eliminate 'it's early' as a reason to do anything. Replace with "it is +EV" and "it is not +EV". I say this all the time but if anything, early is a reason to gamble because the value of your chips is closer to their cash value they will be at the bubble. "It's early" can be used to justify folding AA on the first hand. We gamble more 'late' because there is a lot of money in the pot because the antes are up. Here, there is also a lot of money in the pot.

Donks think one of two things when they shove - "i like my cards" or "i can make them fold".

again, you can use this thinking to justify any lay down or call you want to make, it isn't useful. We are favorites to have missed this flop - remember you are dealt a lot more unpaired hands than paired hands. So it is pretty reasonable to think we might fold (especially if we fold JJ-!!) and to like a hand like 9x or low PP here. You are giving these



Put him on a range and we'll go from there. If your range is going to be something like QQ+ and sets and AcKc, it's OK I guess. But to warn you, my follow up will be about why you would not raise ATC in this spot since someone will have to have/flop an overpair, set or nuclear draw to continue.

[Kijjo]

alright, watched pretty much the same thing play out in a game this afternoon, and seeing it happen live, made me see it differently. the caller was holding QQ instead of JJ, but same situation really, big pot in relation to stacks, rag board with only 2 to a suit, dude shoves, QQ calls correctly. I guess just seeing it written in a HH makes me go "bleh".

drmc i have a hard time understanding some of the stuff you wrote. basically what I was saying in that quote was we call villains donks, say they're stupid, then assign them good reasoning skills to shove for pot odds or whatever. If they're stupid, they're stupid. If they're just aggressive donks, so be it, but you can't say he's stupid then assign him good reasoning skills.

early is a reason to gamble because the value of your chips is closer to their cash value they will be at the bubble.

huh?

But to warn you, my follow up will be about why you would not raise ATC in this spot since someone will have to have/flop an overpair, set or nuclear draw to continue.

Raise in this spot? I would have done as poster and raised pre. Would have shoved if first to act, what I was saying was that I don't like to CALL here. As I said above, I'll take that back. Think it is the correct play.

[gingerwizard]

"It's early" can be a reason if your end game edge is large.

BUT, you can't pass up decent +$EV spots anytime. Even a great shove late is just an edge. This is a HUGE edge. Take it and if you're worried about "early" here, don't raise 9x pre, and stop playing sngs.

Can't think of a hand that beats us that makes sense even from a donk perspective. SO call!

[drmcboy]

no one said they shove "because of good pot odds". I'm saying he is stupid, which is why his range is much wider than sets and over pairs.

You should prefer calling here. If you shove you are never going to fold out a better hand or a flush draw. But if you call there is a much better chance your opponent has nothing or a lower PP. We would of course have shoved if it checked to us, but him moving in is a good thing, especially since it makes a lot more sense for him to check a big hand to us. If he's stupid, it doesn't really matter.

Rather than re-state early vs late I'll ask you why you want to fold since it's early?

[Projectp]

I gotta go with everyone here and say more often than not your hand is best. All that beats you that i can see is someone getting really excited about a set

[tuuk2]

As I've stated before my biggest problem is the willingness to risk it all on a hand that I'm not sure is best. In this case, I felt I was ahead of what anyone would be pushing here, unless he was afraid of a draw out so he bet his trips hard.

The unknown was the person yet to act, but I was already thinking he was folding here so I really didn't worry about him. Well anyway, for those who like to see these things, here are the results.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $3.00+$0.40 Tournament, 15/30 Blinds (10 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG+1 (t1380)
UTG+2 (t1990)
MP1 (t1470)
MP2 (t1290)
MP3 (t1477)
Hero (CO) (t1465)
Button (t1258)
SB (t1670)
BB (t1500)
UTG (t1500)

Hero's M: 32.56

Preflop: Hero is CO with J, J
2 folds, UTG+2 calls t30, MP1 calls t30, MP2 calls t30, 1 fold, Hero bets t270, Button calls t270, 4 folds, MP2 calls t240

Flop: (t915) 9, 4, 5 (3 players)
MP2 bets t1020 (All-In), Hero raises to t1195 (All-In), Button calls t988 (All-In)

Turn: (t3943) A (3 players, 3 all-in)

River: (t3943) 4 (3 players, 3 all-in)

Total pot: t3943

Results in white below:
Button had Q, K (one pair, fours).
MP2 had 7, A (two pair, Aces and fours).
Hero had J, J (two pair, Jacks and fours).
Outcome: MP2 won t3943

I can't possibly begin to understand why the person behind me did what he did. Real head scratcher there. I thought my play was correct, but of course you second guess yourself here after the fact.

[TLR]

I think you played the hand fine. MP call preflop was very loose, but his flop play was fine, as was your call, you were in a race situation with tons of dead money in the pot

[drmcboy]

but of course you second guess yourself here after the fact.

you do this "of course" when you start out but one of the most important days you'll have as a player is the first day you don't.

[GatorJH]

button on the other hand.............

[TLR]

button on the other hand.............

It was pretty bad, however not as terrible as it first seems, if he had 6 outs + backdoor flush (for example JJ and A9h in villain's hands) then he has the correct pot odds to call (however I suspect it is still wrong if you run ICM)

[frreshprince]

id call prolly cuz im a donk but its early in a turbo at low stakes with alot of chips at risk. hes probably a terrible player and tried to lead out to steal the pot. usually this means they suck or atleast that there hand is weak because they're not letting you C-bet then raise. so as of RIGHT NOW in the hand im confident to say you're winning, so in the long run you'll win this hand out. and if the guy behind you is sitting on any sort of hand thats better than yours, hes a moron because that flop is extremely weak with a big raise preflop. i guess one of them could've hit there set, but not likly!

[Kijjo]

early early early. you guys really took that to mean I was saying to fold this hand based on that it was early? I was saying that since it was early, calling a 9XBB raise, they should have a real hand. I would assign them a tighter range. Why fight over bb's and limps of 30 chips with marginal hands? Ofcourse we can see now what they played with and that's wrong.
I guess I forget how ridiculous people play. Last night I had a guy go allin preflop on about the 10th hand with AJo, fighting over 45 chips of blinds. Just blows my mind.

[drmcboy]

I commented on the early thing because even if you don't do it it's a common leak for most micro players.

Your last post doesn't make much sense because the only time you can call a 9x BB raise without being pot committed is early. And it's almost never going to be a correct call so what you are saying is the villain is so bad at poker they don't get pre flop at all, but they would only make this horrible play with good hands.

[Poker Orifice]

AA-QQ that doesn't want to let people draw out?

Do you really think he'd limp/call the 9x rs.& call w QQ-AA? Wouldn't he bet shoving here w KK AA preflop over the raise & call?

The play is soooooo bad on those tables, I'm thinking guy leading out on the flop with the shove is on Ac-Xc. Otherwise I don't think the shove makes sense (but then again alot of the early level play on those tables doesn't make sense).

Personally I think the preflop raise to 180 was too big. If I'm on a table where preflop raises are getting called by limpers, I'm more apt to just call behind here with the JJ in early levels and play it for set value. It sucks but what are ya gonna do on a table like that (I can't stand those tables!).

[naturalassassin]

He could be shoving with a set, or A9 or even Ax suited. sometimes top two or top and bottom. Obviously folding is as option here. Of course he could have a draw. This is a typical betting pattern. Some players frequently overbet the pot with premium draws and Hands likely to beat top pair. If you have top pair you should be able to process all the information and figure out what you best move is. I don't like to call and be wrong so I'm a nit. I figure it's likely to be a coin flip or I'm in terrible shape. It's a tough call for sure.

[BadAssOutlaw]

i think the obvious thing here is your raise initially was too high.. However, I think calling your raise with A7 suited and QK off suit was a bit donkey too.. after flop, you can easily understand pushing with A7 suited, but the QK was donk.. you made the right play here after, its an easy call and i think Ginger made the right posts about this topic, I agreed with every single word she said..

[gingerwizard]

i think the obvious thing here is your raise initially was too high.. However, I think calling your raise with A7 suited and QK off suit was a bit donkey too.. after flop, you can easily understand pushing with A7 suited, but the QK was donk.. you made the right play here after, its an easy call and i think Ginger made the right posts about this topic, I agreed with every single word she said..

errrrrmm she?

[baudib]

At this level buy-in, with this sort of preflop action from these donks, I'd play an overpair like the nuts here.

[rong]

i think the obvious thing here is your raise initially was too high.. However, I think calling your raise with A7 suited and QK off suit was a bit donkey too.. after flop, you can easily understand pushing with A7 suited, but the QK was donk.. you made the right play here after, its an easy call and i think Ginger made the right posts about this topic, I agreed with every single word she said..

errrrrmm she?

hahahahahaha that really tickled me!

[muzatti]

I like to go in oll-in, if at me at least pair jacks.

[muzatti]

Very often I win. =)))