This was sooo stupid..

[lestic]

A Hand. it's from Stars $3 +R 50k guaranteed.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $3.00+$0.30 Tournament, 1250/2500 Blinds 300 Ante (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

CO (t28148)
Button (t64445)
SB (t37514)
BB (t46425)
UTG (t59630)
UTG+1 (t22729)
Hero (MP1) (t41590)
MP2 (t39088)
MP3 (t91236)

Hero's M: 6.45

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A, Q
2 folds, Hero bets t7500, 5 folds, BB calls t5000

Flop: (t18950) 3, 4, 5 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets t33790 (All-In), BB calls t33790

Beat my head to the wall because of the play.. well at least I was already itm, so picked up some bucks.
This kind of thing seems to happen to me a lot when I'm deep in a tourney, it's something like overconfidence. What could I do about it?

[LuckySlevin]

Count to ten before you press a button. Seriously. That is just getting carried away with the hand and letting your emotions run your brain. I used to do that kinda thing a lot deep in tournies.

[chardrian]

shove pre.

[lestic]

So when you look at stack sizes, blind sizes, antes etc.., what's the best option here?
Shove pre or just simply fold pre? Or play as I played, but c/f the flop?

btw, BB had 66, so I think he'd have called my pre shove as well, he was pretty loose.

When I look back at the hand now, I feel I should have just check folded on the flop, or make a smaller cbet and then fold to a possible raise. After all, isn't survival the key? There's still some 700 players in this tournament left.

[hopeful]

M=6 shove pre, maybe he'd call maybe he wouldnt but lots of hands will fold to a shove that will call a standard raise.
Would you call an all in bet for 90% of your stack with 66, doubt if i would.

[mcatdog]

You're being results oriented, this shove isn't even bad. C-betting and folding to a raise is definitely way worse than just shoving. It sounds like you have the mentality that if you ever get your money in with the worst hand then you played it wrong.

[CorbinDallas]

so many players in the 3 rebuy call a 3x raise from the blinds with stupid hands. especially if the guy is loose... he often can't call your shove when he has the KTsooooooooted. a check, most often means "i have nothing" and your shove wins the pot.

[Sprayed]

So when you look at stack sizes, blind sizes, antes etc.., what's the best option here?
Shove pre or just simply fold pre? Or play as I played, but c/f the flop?

btw, BB had 66, so I think he'd have called my pre shove as well, he was pretty loose.

When I look back at the hand now, I feel I should have just check folded on the flop, or make a smaller cbet and then fold to a possible raise. After all, isn't survival the key? There's still some 700 players in this tournament left.

Shove pre is fine or as played is fine. BB shouldn't be calling to hit a set. He doesn't have the implied odds to do so. A better option for him is to either shove pre or just fold. Or call, not for set odds, but to go and go.

Survival is not necessarily the key in an MTT. There might be times when ICM comes into play and you should try and survive and squeak into the money. However, the goal is to get all the chips by making +EV plays.

[dthorne04]

You're being results oriented, this shove isn't even bad. C-betting and folding to a raise is definitely way worse than just shoving. It sounds like you have the mentality that if you ever get your money in with the worst hand then you played it wrong.

this.

also, i'd open for about 6000-6500 preflop.

and i'd probably end up cbetting the flop, and calling any shove due to the pot size/your stack size.

[Taicho]

With an M of 6, I think I'd shove preflop. I don't see you getting called by anything less than 99+ AQ+ unless they have a significant stack, so in this case I think the BB was probably folding. You did say he was loose, though, so who knows.

As played I think the shove is fine, though it's definitely frustrating when this happens. If you c-bet for, say, 12k, that leaves about 21k still in your stack and you're committed anyway. An argument could be made for checking behind him and I wouldn't hate that either, but I don't think you need to beat your head on the wall for this move

[mcatdog]

I don't think shoving preflop is optimal. You have enough chips to make it 5500 or 6000 and have a very little bit of room to maneuver on the flop. What's so scary about 3R donks calling your small raise with terrible hands when you've got AQ? Sounds like a sweet deal to me.

[chardrian]

AQ has way too much value to fold pre, but we need to see all 5 cards with it if we are called, so I actually hate raising to 5500 because it forces us into a c-bet/fold situation on tons of flops which just sucks.

If we're going to take that route, I'd much rather minraise pre to save some chips.

[baudib]

I don't think you played it that badly; villain's play is pretty awful imo.

I'm with chardrian, I like a shove preflop or maybe a minraise.

[mcatdog]

I would definitely minraise here, but I didn't want to suggest that because for some reason everyone thinks minraising a donk play and people seem to run for the hills whenever I suggest it.

I don't think "I'd rather get allin preflop and not have to bet-fold the flop" is good logic. If people call your raise with terrible cards and try to make a pair, you are making a lot of money in the long run from those players. More money than you would make if you had just shoved pre and they'd folded. Especially since quite often you'll have their pair dominated on the flop. I don't see how it sucks if they call your raise with QJ and flop a J and you bet fold.

[CBAT]

raise to 6K preflop, check behind on the flop.

[dthorne04]

I would definitely minraise here, but I didn't want to suggest that because for some reason everyone thinks minraising a donk play and people seem to run for the hills whenever I suggest it.

I don't think "I'd rather get allin preflop and not have to bet-fold the flop" is good logic. If people call your raise with terrible cards and try to make a pair, you are making a lot of money in the long run from those players. More money than you would make if you had just shoved pre and they'd folded. Especially since quite often you'll have their pair dominated on the flop. I don't see how it sucks if they call your raise with QJ and flop a J and you bet fold.

Agree 100% with the part about logic. It sounds just scared, results oriented to me, that line of thinking. Everything else agree as well, and especially the last part. It's a long run type of thinking, i.e. the way to think about poker. This is a good post, folks. Save it, and look at it often, imo.

[chardrian]

it might sound scared, it might even be scared, but it's all about avoiding awkwardville and putting your opponent in it.

There are sometimes where you can't avoid getting awkward and some might say this is one of those spots, but I think that's only the case if you play "standard." I.e. if you bet 3x or less here you really are putting yourself in a shit situation if you are smoothcalled.

If you are going to bet 2-3x pre and c-bet any flop for another 4-6 BBs then why not just put 6 BBs in pre and shove any flop?

[CorbinDallas]

good thread.

if we min raise, the pot is 14k and we have 36k. we cbet 6k? 7k? and now have 30k when we fold to the check raise? we might be ahead if villain only has 2 hearts. we might have 10 outs if villain is C/Ring with 88.

but if we think we have 10 outs then all the money goes in no matter what right?

so we fold and the blinds come around and crush us and now we're looking to double back up to the 41k when we folded AQ on the flop with maybe 10 outs.

[mcatdog]

it's all about avoiding awkwardville and putting your opponent in it.

I agree with this, but I don't see how open shoving such a large stack size puts your opponent in an awkward situation at all. It entails you playing very tight, and your opponents making few mistakes against your range. They can accurately put you on a range of AK-AJ, pocket pairs, and maybe some suited broadway hands, and just won't make a lot of mistakes vs. your range. Shoving a weaker hand than that, is not going to work out for you. You are the one in the awkward situation if you're not winning many pots and your opponents aren't making mistakes vs. you.

If you are going to bet 2-3x pre and c-bet any flop for another 4-6 BBs then why not just put 6 BBs in pre and shove any flop?

Because like I said above, it's only profitable to commit yourself right out of the gate if you have a pretty big hand. I want to be minraising here with hands like 98s and KJo, hands where open shoving or 6x are definitely -EV, therefore I would play AQ the same. It's not so much that I actually care about having a balanced range in the 3R (although in many of the tournaments I play, it matters a great deal that you balance your range in this spot) but that if your minraising range here is only big pairs and really marginal hands, then most of the hands in your range suck and the 3R fish are unintentionally making a good play by calling your raises with weakish hands and playing back at you. Once you strengthen your minraising range by including hands like 99-JJ, AK, AQ then you are forcing the fish to make huge mistakes by calling you with weak hands, which ultimately is your goal in poker.

[mcatdog]

good thread. if we min raise, the pot is 14k and we have 36k. we cbet 6k? 7k? and now have 30k when we fold to the check raise? we might be ahead if villain only has 2 hearts. we might have 10 outs if villain is C/Ring with 88.

With a SPR of under 3 I would definitely bet-call AQ on that flop. I don't think it's even close to be honest.

[CorbinDallas]

ok. by "very little bit of room to maneuver on the flop", i thought that meant we could cbet and fold.

[chardrian]

I am somewhat being a devil's advocate, and somewhat being totally truthful in this thread.

I would actually raise 5x here pre which if called would give us a potsized shove. But I am doing this with basically my entire opening range here.

[mcatdog]

ok. by "very little bit of room to maneuver on the flop", i thought that meant we could cbet and fold.

In general you can on some flops, but definitely not on this flop with your gutshot + the chance that worse draws are being pushed.

[chardrian]

yeah - as played (and it was played fine) this is an easy bet/call on that flop.

[lestic]

Woohoo! I never thought a thread I started would generate so many comments So thankyou!

Although I have to admit I'm even more confused now.. what I originally thought about my play was that the pot shove was a dumb move - it's waaay overbetting the pot, so if villain calls, he probably has me dominated. And if he's not gonna call, he'll fold to a smaller bet too?

Hmm, I quite like this idea of minraising and then cbetting the flop, it feels certainly more profitable than just 3bb open stealing. But isn't there more risk involved? If villain calls with pure crap and catches a piece (be it bottom pair or whatever) he's probably not gonna let go of it, you can't bluff these people of bottom hands..

Got 2nd in a $4,40 180-man last night and it's a happy monday

[CorbinDallas]

i think you are still being a little results oriented. i KNOW mcat and char are very very good MTT players and both agree that your play is fine.... AS PLAYED.

i do like how they've suggested other options for similar situations. 2 options to vary your play in similar spots.

[gn2056]

shove pre.

the count thing sounds silly but its not a bad idea, pretty much every time i slow down i make a better decision, usually if i think i am beat I am... of course i fold a lot more than the average player, so i also fold a lot of winners.

[lansd]

Survival is the main, not the strongest card not to allin

[dthorne04]

Survival is the main, not the strongest card not to allin

Incorrect. And his flop play isn't bad, gutshot (without seeing villain's 66) and two overs.