turbo again, QQ again

[rong]

Titan Poker, 10 man SnG TURBO, $10 + $1, blinds 30/60, hand converted by Talking-Poker.

Button DanAronG (1600)
SB kogtistiy (1440)
BB zema7 (1480)
UTG jamespeter (990)
UTG+1 etnoghost (1330)
MP fkcIt (1440)
MP ogormanian69 (2440)
MP Notwehrexzess (1420)
CO-1 elvichente12 (1400)
CO gurteenboy (1460)

Preflop: DanAronG is on the Button with Q Q
jamespeter raises to 210, 2 folds, ogormanian69 calls 210, 3 folds, DanAronG????

No reads on either player, is this the same as last time, ie call and push assuming I don't see an A or K? Or just shove over preflop?

[GatorJH]

You have position on both players. Call and see a flop

[baudib]

I would shove this. I'm not worried about being behind or getting away from a scary flop; I'm concerned about not getting paid when they whiff and/or see overcards on the flop.

[bendoro]

i would shove also

[Taicho]

Seems like a good place to shove, UTG has put a fifth of his stack in and will probably be calling, and with a reraise + call MP is likely not coming along (he's the large stack and could have called that 210 with as low as suited connectors). There's also the possibility that this will result in two folds which would be nice with 500 chips already in the pot.

[TLR]

I would call and commit to any non A flop

[Random_Hero]

I would call and commit to any non A flop

Have to agree with this. If the blinds were higher I would shove over but you have enough chips to get away from the hand if an A or K comes and someone bets the flop...

[taipan168]

I would shove this. This is different to the other QQ hand because you aren't up against somebody who also has a double stack. If you call and the flop comes A high you may well get bluffed off the best hand.

[rong]

Well I did shove and got called by both.

Small stack showed AK, big stack showed AA.

End of the torney for me.

I still think shoving was right though. I figured only the small stack would call unless I was up against JJ+ or AK. I guess that was correct. I think I would do this everytime.

Can someone run this through an ICM calcualtor for me please. I really can't be bothered to do the math myself. I know thats lazy, but it will take me 15mins that I just don't have at the moment.

As for ranges, small stack range A8+, KQ, 55+ and always calling the shove, big stack having called with A9s+, AJ+, KQ, 77+, and only calling my shove with AQs+, AK, JJ+.

Would like to see the results. Thanks for all your comments so far, look forward to seeing the ICM calulation, and thanks in advance if anyone is willing to calculate it.

[Random_Hero]

i'd run it thru wiz but mine is playing up at the monet...its saying im not registered

i'd like to see some calcs behind this also if anyone cares to lol...

[rong]

Can you use sngwiz to somehow allow for the initial range and then the tighter range for the call?

[taipan168]

OK, I ran this through SNG Wiz with the following ranges. I can't input the exact ranges you gave above because SNG Wiz works in %:

- UTG raises with 12% (44+, A7s+, A9o+, KQs) and always calls the shove
- Big stack calls with 11% (44+, A8s+, ATo+) and calls your shove over and UTG's call (since you said he calls 100%) with JJ+, AK
- SB calls your push with QQ+, AKs
- BB calls your push with TT+, AQs+, AKo

Under this scenario, the EV of pushing is 12.51% and the equity of folding is 10.67% so it is solidly +EV to push.

If you'd like me to run other variables, let me know.

[GatorJH]

I agree with the ICM calculation that shows a shove> fold, but I still feel that a shove is not our only play here and may not be the most +ev play.

[taipan168]

I agree with the ICM calculation that shows a shove> fold, but I still feel that a shove is not our only play here and may not be the most +ev play.

+1.8% EV is about as good as it gets in SNGs. Remember an A or K flops about a third of the time.

[Random_Hero]

is it EVER correct to just flat call here then no? shoving is ALWAYS the correct move?

[taipan168]

is it EVER correct to just flat call here then no? shoving is ALWAYS the correct move?

Read dependent, if you have a read that UTG is a LAGGtard and will shove any flop since he's first to act, but that the caller won't call the shove without a good hand then you can flat and call the shove by UTG even on an A/K high flop provided the caller goes away. If the flop comes all undercards (or Q comes obv) then if I flatted preflop I'd call even if the caller shoved.

[lNormajean]

whats wrong with a soul read / fold ?
call is kinda suspicious but yeah w/e
shuv almost 100% of the time

[taipan168]

whats wrong with a soul read / fold ?

Everything, I'm never ever ever ever folding here unless I know that UTG and/or the caller would never show up here without AA or KK and it's almost impossible that we'd have that good of a read.

[Poker Orifice]

I would shove here in a heartbeat. I'm certainly not expecting the bigstack to be trapping by just calling here on AA and I'm actully normally assuming that it'd be similiar to a 'squeeze play' (if on deeperstacks in an MTT).
I'm shoving here and am expecting 15bb stack to be calling.