Problem adapting to Double-or-Nothing games

[Raoni_Poker]

Hi,

After trying Limit Holdem for a while (my profit was quite low), I decided to try SGs, in which I think I play better (its pathetic but most of my history is playing with play-money until I achieved 1M to sell it later).

Well, as I am really shortstack for now, I decided to try some DoNs at PokerStars. It sounds easy to be in 5th place and grab a prize (SnGs usually pays 3 players as you all know).
However, despite using all strategies I had in mind (as being ultra tight on early levels) and also after a good start, I didn’t make it (8th place, shove 77 - with 7BBs…was called by 99 and QQ – funny thing). I know how to play tight (probably is what I do better), but when three players are almost guaranteed ITM and the shortstacks are reluctant to fall…Its easy to make dumb mistakes, And when the blinds are high…its easy to become the shortstack after one single mistake.
I’m posting this thread because I need some help to adjust to DoNs. I mean, it feels that the table plays like I play in SnGs, and I’m not finding ways to play differently. Middle Stack play can be tricky (specially if one or two shorties overcome you winning big pots).
Probably one of my leaks is failing to extract more chips of my opponents. I won a few pots, but I think my situation could change if I were more aggressive. I focus too much on minimizing my losses that I forget to focus on maximizing my profit.

Here is one example of that (any comments are welcome here):


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00+$0.15 Tournament, 10/20 Blinds (10 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG+1 (t1900)
Hero (UTG+2) (t1420)
MP1 (t1300)
MP2 (t1210)
MP3 (t1470)
CO (t1590)
Button (t1460)
SB (t1460)
BB (t1500)
UTG (t1690)

Hero's M: 47.33

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with Q, Q
2 folds, Hero bets t80, 1 fold, MP2 calls t80, 5 folds

Flop: (t190) 6, 5, A (2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 checks

Turn: (t190) A (2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 checks

River: (t190) 8 (2 players)
Hero bets t80, MP2 calls t80

Total pot: t350

Results in white below:
Hero had Q, Q (two pair, Aces and Queens).
MP2 mucked K, 9 (one pair, Aces).
Outcome: Hero won t350

[baudib]

When the blinds are this low I like much bigger raises with hands like QQ. Raise to $120 at 10/20, $150 at 15/30.

Anyway, I think you have to bet something on the turn but you probably weren't getting much more than you did.

I have very little experience with DoNs, and the ones I played were when they first started and the players were mostly terrible. I think the competition has adjusted by now. But in general, I would say that if the shortstacks are playing too tight then you should be attacking them with a pretty wide range.

[OneEyeLefty]

I once ran 100 $5.40 DoN's straight. Winning or placing in the top 5 in 92%. There is no reason to get married to QQ when blinds are this low. You need to be thinking the entire time that only the top 3 get paid. I would bet if you played these with that thinking you will achieve much more.

[Nakamura]

I once ran 100 $5.40 DoN's straight. Winning or placing in the top 5 in 92%.

I still play lots of DON's and the field has definitely adjusted, making it much more difficult to win. You used to be able to double up and not have to play another hand. Not these days any more. In fact, you are doing well if you are achieving double figure ROI's (especially if you are multi-tabling).

While, when you get to the higher blinds, it's usually correct to move AI with ATC, your opponents will make mistakes and call with weaker hands when their range should be (AA, or not even that).

Also, because of the flat payout structure, your opponent has much more potential to damage both you and themselves. For example, on the bubble when the sb pushes 67s into a bb who calls with KQo (assume equal stacks), everyone else at the table gains a massive amount of equity (which stems directly from the fact bb has called and actually damaged both players). Thus, it becomes critical to estimate your opponents calling range. Get this wrong and you are damaging yourself and your profits at the table.

Taipan, since the general style of play is very different to normal SNG's, is it mad to suggest DON's should be in a separate forum?

[taipan168]

Taipan, since the general style of play is very different to normal SNG's, is it mad to suggest DON's should be in a separate forum?

All one- and two-table Hold'em tourneys go in this forum whatever the format (with the exception of Limit SNGs but who plays those anyway?). I've inserted links to the two main DoN threads in the FAQs so they can be a kind of "mini-forum" for DoN players.

[kevster]

It's hard to be sure but it sounds like you're playing too many hands. You need to be folding a lot generally and more so if you're being played back at (unless you're holding a monster).

When you do have a hand, play it aggressively. Slowplaying has little value (unless you've got the nuts). Don't complain if everyone folds. You need to accumulate chips but you need to preserve your existing stack more so.

Finally, don't get tied up with your M or number of BBs left. This is still important but loses importance if there are several other shorties at the table. That 77 hand might've been a fold.

[Luco]

DoN's are just disney versions of satellites, which themselves are playmobil versions of MTTs.

Pick your spots well, double up, fold into the money. It's like spending 3/4 hour on the bubble.

[Aplomado]

I would C-bet the flop with the Ace out there. When you just check like that you allow draws free cards. A bet tells you if he's on a draw or if he's got TP.

With regards to extracting chips, though, the simple fact is you're not going to get anything out of this guy with the hand he has. I'm shocked he called the river. The key is just to play your hands aggressive when you have one, and get out when you know you're beat.

[Aplomado]

As an addendum, there's no magic way to get a guy who doesn't have a hand to put money in the pot. Just go after them with your bets. A lot of times they get out of the way and you get a marginal payoff. But it keeps you out of bad situations where you get outdrawn, and you get paid off big when someone tries to draw or thinks they have a better hand.

[Raoni_Poker]

I would bet if you played these with that thinking you will achieve much more.

I'm sure you're right and I'll try to think like that. However, when you invest 20% of your bankroll in ONE tournament (thats my case, since my BR yesterday was 5,60)...you cant have major fluctuations.
Therefore, I think the best strategy for me now is to be carefull. I wasnt yesterday (called a supid raise with A6s...lost almost 200 chips).

I tried a DON today, and it was better. I mean, I was ULTRATIGHT (probably more than Phill Helmuth's 10 hands). I played 7% of all hands and I finished in 4th place. The major difference here is that I was much more effective in the pots I was in.

Other thing I've noticed in Dons is the amount of all in bets. When the blinds are high, many players shove (specially shortstacks). I mean, one of then was down to 700 chips and managed to achieve 1800 chips with all in bets (until he got called and was elimined in 7th place). In this DoN i did it once. Down to 7 players, high blinds, shorties bothering me...I pushed all in with J-9o (i think)...and luckly nobody called.

Before trying DoNs, I thought it was much more automatic than it is. In fact, I intended to play several DoNs at the same time (being ultra tight). However, the amount of bubble play is huge and if you're not careful, you're the bubble!

I would like very much to know your opinion on the following hand. My opponent lost a big pot and shove 790chips. After that first all in, he did it over and over again...stealing blinds and surviving.
Would you call this one?

FTR Hand History Converter Output (intended for copying and pasting into poker forums!):
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00+$0.15 Tournament, 25/50 Blinds 5 Ante (10 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

SB (t2485)
BB (t640)
UTG (t1410)
UTG+1 (t790)
UTG+2 (t1465)
MP1 (t1820)
Hero (MP2) (t1940)
MP3 (t1515)
CO (t1565)
Button (t1370)

Hero's M: 15.52

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K, A
1 fold, UTG+1 bets t785 (All-In), 8 folds

Total pot: t175

Results in white below:
UTG+1 didn't show
Outcome: UTG+1 won t175

[Rage2100]

The AK hand is annoying if UTG+1 has been shoving often, but it's still a fold. You are second in chips, it's relatively early, and you still have five players left to act behind you.