1010 over pair and oesd facing all-in bet on flop

[natso]

Bodog $16 10-man, no reads

Villain 1575
UTG+1 1430
MP1 2025
Hero 1205
CO-1 1495
CO 1910
BTN 1115
SB 1600
BB 1260

Blinds: 25/50

Hero dealt: 10s10c

Pre-Flop: call, fold, fold, call, Hero calls, fold, fold, fold, call, check

Flop (250): 9h8c7c
4 checks, Hero bets 180, 2 folds, Villain raises to 1525 (all-in), fold, Hero???

[baudib]

Call

[natso]

wow, insightful, thanks

[Taicho]

First off, I'd raise preflop. As played, I call. No preflop raises means there's very little likelyhood of JJ+, so worst case you're up against two pair or a set; in either case, you have ~8 outs for your straight, and a ten may give you the lead as well. That's assuming you aren't already in the lead. Definitely call.

[taipan168]

With 175 chips in the pot preflop and your stack at 1200, I probably just shove it right here. It's not a bad outcome to pick up the dead chips without a fight and if you're called you will often be ahead of their ranges.

As played, I definitely call the shove with an overpair and an OESD. You may well have the best hand right now, and even if you don't you have up to 10 outs to improve. Call.

[TLR]

Raise preflop, especially with two limpers in front

On the flop bet pot size with that number of opponents, and definitive call the shove

[rong]

Def raise pre. Min 3x, maybe 4x. That way you have a bigger pot that makes shoving the flop more worthwfile. Shoving the flop now seems a little extreme. As played call for reasons above, but I'm not so confident with 5 or 6 people in the pot, although still not folding.

[Nakamura]

I don't like calling or standard raising pre-flop here. There are a lot of cards that are going to make it difficult to extract any value from TT. I push PF.

As played I call the flop shove.

[rong]

No way! Get it to 1 or 2 callers, shove flop with overpair, C bet any other. 3 callers +, shove overpair, c/f most others.

[Nakamura]

No way! Get it to 1 or 2 callers, shove flop with overpair, C bet any other. 3 callers +, shove overpair, c/f most others.

A standard raise to 250 and then 1/2 psb cb = 1/2 your stack. Folding away half your stack is gross. If you standard raise and c-bet you are going to follow have to follow the hand, right to the bitter end (no matter what the flop is).

[rong]

BB = 50.
Raise to 200 - 3 callers - pot = 675 (assuming blinds fold and earlier callers call)

Your stack = 1005.

See your point. C-Bet of 350 is minimum required, so leaves you with 650 stack.

Hmmmm........

And stop N Go runs into the same problems.

OK, I'm convinced, shove preflop, or call as you did and only shove over pair.

[TLR]

I dont agree with it, you assume that if you raise preflop you have to c-bet the flop and thus you conclude that you have to shove preflop, I dont agree with this logic.

While picking up 175 is not a bad result pushing preflop limits opponent's calling range to hands that have you dominated or AK.
I prefer to raise it preflop to 220-250, hopefully thinning the field to one caller, and seeing the flop. If the flop is bad for you (for example AKx) you can get out of the hand with still around 20BB to play. If you raise preflop and get 1 or 2 callers your flop decision is push or check-fold

[baudib]

JJ+/AK is a ridiculously tight calling range.

[rong]

I dont agree with it, you assume that if you raise preflop you have to c-bet the flop and thus you conclude that you have to shove preflop, I dont agree with this logic.

While picking up 175 is not a bad result pushing preflop limits opponent's calling range to hands that have you dominated or AK.
I prefer to raise it preflop to 220-250, hopefully thinning the field to one caller, and seeing the flop. If the flop is bad for you (for example AKx) you can get out of the hand with still around 20BB to play. If you raise preflop and get 1 or 2 callers your flop decision is push or check-fold

There's no point raising if you are planning not to be aggressive on the flop. In all probability you will not have an over pair, so you are folding on the flop the majority of the time. Against 2 players, someone may well bet. IF you are only looking for sets or overpairs, you may as well have called.

This is what was driving my initial comments, assuming you raise, the blinds fold and the callers call, you will have position on the flop, so why not stick in a C-bet if folded to. But as noted, this does risk a lot of your stack.

Hence, limp & shove overpairs or shove pre.

As for comments regarding calling range should you shove, its 2 overs -KQ, AK, AQ, maybe AJ- , an over pair, or.....what? 77-99? Maybe. Can't see Ax calling very often as the blinds aren't high enough to justify calling so light.

[fulksy]

really shoving 24 BB that seems a bit excessive? i see the problem with raiseing then c betting being a large % of your stack, raise pre flop and let it go on a bad flop

[TLR]

I dont agree with it, you assume that if you raise preflop you have to c-bet the flop and thus you conclude that you have to shove preflop, I dont agree with this logic.

While picking up 175 is not a bad result pushing preflop limits opponent's calling range to hands that have you dominated or AK.
I prefer to raise it preflop to 220-250, hopefully thinning the field to one caller, and seeing the flop. If the flop is bad for you (for example AKx) you can get out of the hand with still around 20BB to play. If you raise preflop and get 1 or 2 callers your flop decision is push or check-fold

There's no point raising if you are planning not to be aggressive on the flop. In all probability you will not have an over pair, so you are folding on the flop the majority of the time. Against 2 players, someone may well bet. IF you are only looking for sets or overpairs, you may as well have called.

This is what was driving my initial comments, assuming you raise, the blinds fold and the callers call, you will have position on the flop, so why not stick in a C-bet if folded to. But as noted, this does risk a lot of your stack.

Hence, limp & shove overpairs or shove pre.

As for comments regarding calling range should you shove, its 2 overs -KQ, AK, AQ, maybe AJ- , an over pair, or.....what? 77-99? Maybe. Can't see Ax calling very often as the blinds aren't high enough to justify calling so light.

You are only folding on the flop if the flop is dangerous to you (J or Q high flop may also be OK) and if you are OOP or in position and getting bet into. You are also assuming that I will get callers which is not always the case

[Nakamura]

Personally, I think these are both legitimate ways of playing the hand. I do agree that shoving here seems excessive, but this may prevent us from being forced off the best hand post-flop. Until I either see some number crunching (or do it myself), I'm not really sure what is getting the best value out of the hand.

[baudib]

I think shoving preflop is fine. Picking up 175 dead chips is a great result and we don't mind getting called. Also I think you can raise to $300 and shove every flop.

[taipan168]

really shoving 24 BB that seems a bit excessive? i see the problem with raiseing then c betting being a large % of your stack, raise pre flop and let it go on a bad flop

Looking at our 24x BB stack is not the right way to think about this hand, it's a question of how many chips already in the pot with the limps and the blinds and how much THAT is as a proportion of our stack.

Think of it this way, if we open shove with 10x BB, we are looking at the 1.5x BB of dead chips (the blinds) already in the pot.

[Poker Orifice]

Bodog $16 10-man, no reads

Villain 1575
UTG+1 1430
MP1 2025
Hero 1205
CO-1 1495
CO 1910
BTN 1115
SB 1600
BB 1260

Blinds: 25/50

Hero dealt: 10s10c

Pre-Flop: call, fold, fold, call, Hero calls, fold, fold, fold, call, check

Flop (250): 9h8c7c
4 checks, Hero bets 180, 2 folds, Villain raises to 1525 (all-in), fold, Hero???

As played preflop..
Bet POT on the flop and call any shove. What kind of hand would limp utg and then check behind on flop?

I'm also not overly opposed to the 'call' preflop. I think if we raise it up from MP here we might just be ending up bloating up the pot and getting a couple of callers. When an ok but not great flop comes... then where do we stand?