Patience x Aggressiveness in the bubble

[Raoni_Poker]

Hi,

I am almost a newbie in poker (i’ve been playing for 3 months) and I hope to get some insight concerning the bubble. For most of the time, I manage to be in the money just being more patient than my opponents. But very often, I am the shortstack when it comes to the bubble. In these situations, I need good hands to double (or triple).
When the bubble falls…I usually play better (more aggressively) and very often I manage to get in second or even in first place.

I prefer PokerStars SGs, but last week I tried a 10 people stgo in EverestPoker (0,5$). That’s harder than PS because you start with 1000 chips. So…you have little room for mistakes. I knew I had to be very patient. Even though my opponents were too weak…it happened again…I was the shortstack just before the bubble. After a KK…I’ve doubled it…and in few minutes I was heads up.

This strategy is working for me (for most of the time I am in the money). However, I am aware that it is probably because the opponents are just too weak in micro games (in other words…I think they lack patience). However, I would like to avoid the situation of being the shortstack in the bubble because it is an unpredictable situation (you depend strongly on luck…not on skill).

So, I wonder how you experts do when it comes to the bubble. Being aggressive is better than patient in these cases? I read some books and also the insightful article written by Dave here in FTR. Its difficult to be aggressive when the bubble is coming…after all…you do not want to be the shortstack when it comes.

[taipan168]

Hi and welcome to the SNG forum, it's good to have you here.

Tight/aggressive early and loose(r)/aggressive late is one of the possible winning tournament strategies. Understanding push/fold poker when your stack gets below 15x BB is also very important to SNG success. Also important is the fact that you absolutely cannot let yourself get blinded out so you have no more fold equity; at some stage you have to take a stand and shove bad cards when the table situation is favourable (eg. when it's folded to you in the SB).

Probably the best way to get advice is to post specific hands/tourneys for comment - it's hard to give general suggestions without something to refer to.

[Luco]

Aggressiveness on the bubble is inversely proportional to your chip stack. The shorter my stack, the more aggressive I get.

[Raoni_Poker]

Thanks,

What I usually do when I am the shortstack is wait (patience) for a pair (77+ or a AK)...I these cases I always get called (sometimes by two people).

When Im middle stack, I am not aggressive at all...just wait for the bubble and then ill start to play poker...of course, Ill play good hands (or shove it if its premium).

Im aggressive when Im the chip leader...than can intimidate middle stacks with my stack.

Apparently...im doing the opposite of what is recommended, right?

[taipan168]

Post some hands/tourneys, it makes it much easier to discuss.

[Nakamura]

As Taipan said, post some hands.

I think in general you will find the aggression curve more U-shaped. It's correct to be aggressive on the bubble and bully the table with a big stack. It's also correct to be aggressive when you are the shortie (not close in stack size to anyone else), since you are hoping to double up or bust out. Usually though, being aggressive against stack larger than yours is very bad.

[Luco]

Aggression is good no matter what your stack size, as long as it's selective (i.e. well timed and well placed).

One thing that I noticed - you said when shortied you wait for 77+ or AK and you 'always' get called. That implies that you're playing too tight IMO. If you always get called, then you're letting your chip count get so low it's not a threat anymore, and that's a big problem.

Also, post some hands lol

[natso]

Playing a patient early game often leads to a smallish stack around the bubble, and there's nothing wrong with that. At that point you should be looking for the right situation rather than the right hand. Try to figure out whose blinds you can steal when it's folded to you. Try to avoid limping or cold calling with speculative hands, it's not the time to be passive. Do what you can to maintian fold equity, meaning don't let your stack get too low, you want to have a stack that will scare people when you shove.

I don't think the style you describe is too far off, maybe a little passive though. 77+ or AK aren't always going to come and sometimes you'll have to make a move with lesser hands to maintain fold equity. As a middle stack you can still be aggressive towards smaller stacks, especially if you know the big stacks are out of the hand. With a big stack you can apply pressure but beware when someone plays back at you unless you have the goods. Hopefully, the times your able to steal should make up for the one you have to fold though.

[Raoni_Poker]

Thanks, guys...
I have a couple of examples (hands) but Im having some trouble in posting it appropriately (is from an EverestPoker sitngo...and its not supported).

Anyway, thanks for the lessons. Ill try to improve my game with that.

[taipan168]

If you can't find a converter (there's sure to be one around somewhere if you do some Google searching) then just post the HH raw.

[Raoni_Poker]

OK...here is one example in EverestPoker. The sit n go is 10-max starting with 1000 chips. Ill post three hands in different stages of the game.

HAND 1: Being patient in early stages. I folded to a reraise with AQ because I did not want to get shortstacked right in the beginning of the SG. The initial amount o chips is actually quite short…so you don’t ham many chips to waste at this moment. Also I did not have any reads about the opponent who reraised me (he was loose but it was his first significant re-raise). Sorry for posting this raw...I actually had to manually translate it from Portuguese (no convert tool would work).

Blinds: 10/20
Stakes: 20/20

Places distribution:

HERO is seated in 1 (970).
1joueur2 is seated in 2 (720).
striadu83 is seated in 3 (1840) - Button.
UMAAGAAAA is seated in 4 (2645) - SB.
rantai is seated in 7 (850) - BB.
Nwanda is seated in 8 (2200).
ceroBest is seated in 9 (775).

UMAAGAAAA pays small blind of 10.
rantai pays big blind of 20.

Cards:
HERO: Ac Qh

Pre-flop:
Nwanda folds.
ceroBest calls 20.
HERO raises from 20 to 60.
1joueur2 reraises from 60 to 230.
striadu83 calls 230.
UMAAGAAAA folds.
rantai folds.
ceroBest folds.
HERO folds.

Flop (2h 9c 2d):
1joueur2 bets 490 and is all in.
striadu83 calls 490.

Turn (2h 9c 2d Qd Jc):

Showdown:
1joueur2: Ah Qs.
1joueur2 has 2h 2d Qs Qd Ah: two pairs (QQ-22)
striadu83: 5d 5c.
striadu83 tem 2h 2d 5d 5c Qd: two pairs (55-22)

Total Pot: 1550
1joueur2 wins 1550.


HAND 2: Almost the same hand, different situation. I raised my AQs preflop and got called by two opponents. I flopped a nut straight flush and got my first pot. Tried to be aggressive after being patient in all previous hands.


HERO is seated in 1 (880).
1joueur2 is seated in 2 (1500).
striadu83 is seated in 3 (1500).
UMAAGAAAA is seated in 4 (2650).
rantai is seated in 7 (570) - Button.
Nwanda is seated in 8 (2280) - SB.
ceroBest is seated in 9 (620) - BB.

Pagar Blinds:

Nwanda pays small blind of 15.
ceroBest pays big blind of 30.

Cards:

HERO: Qh Ah

Pré-flop:
HERO raises to 90.
1joueur2 folds.
striadu83 calls 90.
UMAAGAAAA folds.
rantai folds.
Nwanda folds.
ceroBest calls 60.

Flop (2h 6h Kc):
ceroBest bets 30.
HERO calls 30.
striadu83 calls 30.

Turn (2h 6h Kc 9h):
ceroBest bets 30.
HERO raises to 465.
striadu83 folds.
ceroBest calls 435.


River (2h 6h Kc 9h 3h):
ceroBest bets 35.
HERO raises to 295.
ceroBest calls 260 and is all-in.

Showdown:
HERO: Qh Ah.
HERO has 3h 6h 9h Qh Ah: Flush (ace high)
ceroBest: Kh 10h.
ceroBest tem 3h 6h 9h 10h Kh: Flush (King high)
ceroBest was elimined.

HERO wins 1375.



HAND 3: After this pot, I became more aggressive. I got involved in more pots, and lost some chips. So, while the bubble time was coming, I became more tight. I would only shove or fold depending on my hand…after all, I was THE shortstack (with 8BB). Then, after 50 hands I was dealt a KK. About 30 hands after that I was heads up with Nwanda.


HERO is seated in 1 (810).
1joueur2 is seated in 2 (1190).
UMAAGAAAA is seated in 4 (2560).
Nwanda is seated in 8 (5440).

UMAAGAAAA pays small blind of 50.
Nwanda pays big blind of 100.

Cards:
HERO: Kh Kc

Pre-flop:
HERO raises to 810 and is all in.
1joueur2 folds.
UMAAGAAAA calls 760.
Nwanda folds.


Flop (Ac 10h 7s Ah Ad):

Showdown:
HERO has Kh Kc Ac Ah Ad: Full House (higher pair)
UMAAGAAAA: 6s 6c.
UMAAGAAAA has 6s 6c Ac Ah Ad: Full House
HERO wins 1720.

Again, guys, Im really sorry for posting this raw hands. I think it exemplifies what I’m talking about being patient or aggressive when the bubble comes (if someone was patient enough to read it, of course). Bubble play is still a mistery for me, so…I try to follow my surviving instincts. Being patient to be aggressive sometimes pays off (I mean, at least for micro buy-ins).

Thanks for the support.

[natso]

First of all, let me warn you that Tai is going to come in here and chop out the results of your hands. The emphasis here is on making the correct decisions regardless of the results.

Hand 1: Either limp and try to see a cheap flop or raise bigger (at least 3x + 1 for each limper). Either way you're folding to the big 3-bet and flat behind.

Hand 2: You flopped the nut flush DRAW. Some might not like the UTG raise with AQ but not too out of line. Call on th flop is ok. Turn raise seems a little excessive, especially with the nuts. Luckily you were on the good side of the cooler.

Hand 3: Standard, nh!

[Taicho]

Hand 1: As Natso said, raise 3x BB + 1 BB for each limper preflop (so 80 in this case). Nice fold to the reraise.

Hand 2: I like the pf raise, calling on the flop seems weak but I wouldn't like a raise there so that's fine. Nh.

Hand 3: Easy push, glad you got called - it's frustrating when you wait 50 hands for a good one and no one calls your shove when you get it

As for your original question: try to post some hands (next time you're in an applicable situation) right before the bubble where you're not sure if you should have been more aggressive. Be sure to include any reads you have on the players (e.g. "this guy's been shoving every other hand" or "this guy hasn't played a pot in a while").

[Outlaw]

Before push/fold play the table more than your cards. There is a surprisingly abundant amount of dead money just waiting to be claimed. Getting to the bubble as a short stack should be a last resort and the result of plain bad luck.

At the bubble you want to build a stack by picking on those trying to fold into the money. I fear the short stacks (with a wide calling range) that can hurt my chip stack more than I fear the big stack (with a tighter calling range) who I can hurt.

In a nutshell, play tight against the loosey goosies and loose against the tighties and you can't go wrong. Also, it takes one hellava good hand to call an all in that can hurt your stack than it does to make shove yourself. ie. don't call all ins with AK/AQ on the bubble if it could knock ya out (most of the time) unless the blinds are huge. Its typically better to shove 23 on the next hand

Don't be a pansy. On tight tables on the bubble, become shovasaurus rex when the blinds are like 100/200 25 and 200/400+ You will usually build a huge stack before these donks figure out what you are doing, then you pick up a monster when they play back at you and its $$ time.

My typical SNG goes like this.. I get to 4-handed with a stack of like 2k or so.. I shove shove shove and suddenly I have like 5k, I take a breather and only shove premiums for a bit.. then rinse and repeat until I am heads up with like 10k chips. Sounds easy? Well it really is. Go for 1st always, never 2nd or 3rd.

Do the math. Which is better? Ten 3rds and 0 bubbles or five 1sts and five bubbles?

Oh one other thing.. I use AHK and have a button setup for call.. I always have the think hard to remember which button it is, because I call so few times in an SNG. Calling<Folding<Raising.

[Raoni_Poker]

Nice comments,

I guess in micro buy ins Sgs you can win only by sitting there and waiting for good hands. I mean, those guys do not have any patience whatsoever...they limp in with a huge range of hands, like J-4o, A-xo, etc. Being tight there usually pays off.

However, I really want to learn how to play consistent poker. I guess Ill start to watch higher games to improve my skill (since it will take a long time for me to increase levels). I do not raise enough (I guess), only in limit holdem (which I am quitting because it just do not worth for me).

[taipan168]

Best way is to keep on posting hands/tourneys for comment. Often you may not pick up leaks that you've got but they'll stick out like dogs' balls to others.

[bjsaust]

I prefer PokerStars SGs, but last week I tried a 10 people stgo in EverestPoker (0,5$). That’s harder than PS because you start with 1000 chips.

Everest blinds start at 5/10 whereas Stars is 10/20 isnt it? So Everest you start with 100bbs and Stars is more like 75.

[Raoni_Poker]

I prefer PokerStars SGs, but last week I tried a 10 people stgo in EverestPoker (0,5$). That’s harder than PS because you start with 1000 chips.

Everest blinds start at 5/10 whereas Stars is 10/20 isnt it? So Everest you start with 100bbs and Stars is more like 75.

Yes, you're right. However, the interface of Everest software, which has a big button to bet the size of the pot, usually leads to overbets (specially in low buy in limits). So...even though the blinds are relatively low, you can see very early on bets considerably high (specially when someone raises).

Those people are lazy to figure out how much they should bet and just push the "bet the pot" button. For me is just one more reason to sit and wait those suckers eat themselves.

[Raoni_Poker]

Best way is to keep on posting hands/tourneys for comment. Often you may not pick up leaks that you've got but they'll stick out like dogs' balls to others.

You're right on spot there...I appreciate a lot the contribution of you all...One of the reasons Im getting better has a lot to do with reading good stuff here.
I mean, I've been in other forums and very often people can be quite rude or sarcastic just because you're not a poker expert (like they claim to be).

[rong]

they'll stick out like dogs' balls

Is that an Aussie expression?

[taipan168]

they'll stick out like dogs' balls

Is that an Aussie expression?

Yes. It's appropriate, isn't it?

[Rage2100]

they'll stick out like dogs' balls

Is that an Aussie expression?

Yes. It's appropriate, isn't it?

I'm not sure if taipan has tamed that expression down a bit, but we have a very similar expression here in the UK.

"Have you seen that bloke down the road with the bright pink hair?"
"Yeah, he sticks out like a bulldog's bollocks."