JJ early

[AFchung]

I suck at these STTs. I've squeezed in this spot before only to be flipping at best

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $3.00+$0.40 Tournament, 10/20 Blinds (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop

CO (t1480)
Button (t1540)
SB (t1480)
Hero (BB) (t1500)
UTG (t1500)
UTG+1 (t1500)
MP1 (t1500)
MP2 (t1500)
MP3 (t1500)

Hero's M: 50.00

Preflop: Hero is BB with J, J
2 folds, MP1 bets t100, 2 folds, CO calls t100, Hero?

[taipan168]

You actually have odds to play for set value here since you only have to call 80 to win 1500+. That said, I'd call and get 'em in on an undercard flop.

[AFchung]

You actually have odds to play for set value here since you only have to call 80 to win 1500+. That said, I'd call and get 'em in on an undercard flop.

i always get it in on undercard flops but it seems to always run into QQ+

[rong]

Well there isn't enough in the pot to justify a shove.

If you want to raise, you need to make it heads up. If you want to push one player out, I would say a bare minimum of 300, 200 won't be enough, but even this may just get called by both, perhaps 350 or 400 is needed. But this leads to the problem of acting first on the flop. If you raise say 350 & get one caller, thats an 800 chip pot. So now what? Regardless of the flop, throwing out a cbet of half the pot means so far this hand has cost you half your stack, so you can easily find yourself pot committed. Also, more often than not, (about 57% of the time I think) you will see an overcard. This puts you in a tricky spot. Especially as you are first to act.

So that leaves you with a fold or call. As you are the big blind you can call with the confidence that noone can raise, so calling seems the best option. And JJ is too big a hand to be folding to a raise that is only one 15th of your stack. So as Tai says, call and hope for a set or overpair.

[rong]

You actually have odds to play for set value here since you only have to call 80 to win 1500+. That said, I'd call and get 'em in on an undercard flop.

i always get it in on undercard flops but it seems to always run into QQ+

At higher stakes I might fold this preflop. But at $3 buyin, all sorts could be raising and calling here, so I think you are jsutified in shoving if the flop leaves you with an overpair. A lot of the time you will get called by AK or lower pp's and get paid off.

[taipan168]

You actually have odds to play for set value here since you only have to call 80 to win 1500+. That said, I'd call and get 'em in on an undercard flop.

i always get it in on undercard flops but it seems to always run into QQ+

Sounds like a case of small sample size and/or selective memory. Are you saying that the only hands that these guys will have preflop are QQ+?

[AFchung]

You actually have odds to play for set value here since you only have to call 80 to win 1500+. That said, I'd call and get 'em in on an undercard flop.

i always get it in on undercard flops but it seems to always run into QQ+

Sounds like a case of small sample size and/or selective memory. Are you saying that the only hands that these guys will have preflop are QQ+?

im sure its just sample size



doh

[Lance]

You actually have odds to play for set value here since you only have to call 80 to win 1500+. That said, I'd call and get 'em in on an undercard flop.

i always get it in on undercard flops but it seems to always run into QQ+

Sounds like a case of small sample size and/or selective memory. Are you saying that the only hands that these guys will have preflop are QQ+?

If we get a lucky the flop comes without an overcard smth like Ts, 9s, 2h, we bet 300 and get raised, what now ? We have almost 1/3 of our stack in the pot and facing tough decision.
It is 2st hand of the tourney, i dont know my opponents. They might have a strong draw, set, over pair etc....
I lean toward fold preflop or call and without a set or pretty nice flop (9s, 6h, 2c) i would c/f.
at early stage - Tight is right

Well, if it is still correct to call here, where is the borderline for calling ? TT, 99 or 22+ ?

[Nakamura]

If we get a lucky the flop comes without an overcard smth like Ts, 9s, 2h, we bet 300 and get raised, what now ? We have almost 1/3 of our stack in the pot and facing tough decision.
It is 2st hand of the tourney, i dont know my opponents. They might have a strong draw, set, over pair etc....
I lean toward fold preflop or call and without a set or pretty nice flop (9s, 6h, 2c) i would c/f.
at early stage - Tight is right

Well, if it is still correct to call here, where is the borderline for calling ? TT, 99 or 22+ ?

If I understand your question, you have the odds to call with any pair. While flopping a set of two's isn't quite as good as flopping a set of jacks (since sometimes an opponent will hit a higher set/trips), you should still stack opponents who can not release 2 pair, TP or worse.

[rong]

If we get a lucky the flop comes without an overcard smth like Ts, 9s, 2h, we bet 300 and get raised, what now ? We have almost 1/3 of our stack in the pot and facing tough decision.
It is 2st hand of the tourney, i dont know my opponents. They might have a strong draw, set, over pair etc....
I lean toward fold preflop or call and without a set or pretty nice flop (9s, 6h, 2c) i would c/f.
at early stage - Tight is right

Well, if it is still correct to call here, where is the borderline for calling ? TT, 99 or 22+ ?

If I understand your question, you have the odds to call with any pair. While flopping a set of two's isn't quite as good as flopping a set of jacks (since sometimes an opponent will hit a higher set/trips), you should still stack opponents who can not release 2 pair, TP or worse.

And the chance of an overpair, which is non existant with 2's.

[Trons]

I like the call Pre for set mining/overpair. If either happens, I c/r the flop because you're in a perfect situation to do it. if it goes check/bet/raise then I reevaluate.

If the flop contains an overcard and the PF aggressor bets I may float to the turn if the other guy gets out of the hand and it's only 1/2 pot bet or something...At these levels, you can and will see somebody bet 3 streets with an unimproved AK/AQ. The nice thing is, the bets usually get less and less...

If the turn goes check/check and there is only one over card on the board by the river, betting about 1/2 pot and folding to the raise on the river.

yeah, taking that line is going to cost you some chips if you lose the pot, but I think you'll win the pot enough without showdown that it's worth it.

[str32]

jj is tricky.. but always rase preflop and see the flop

[taipan168]

jj is tricky.. but always rase preflop and see the flop

This is ridiculous advice, are you always seeing the flop if 5 people shove in front of you?

[tuuk2]

Jacks are tough. I would raise to about $300 since you'll be out of position for the rest of the hand and hope to take it down right away. The nice thing is that it's early so if one or both go all-in, you can get away from it. It's way too early to push or call an all-in with JJ pre-flop. . If you call and then the flop is all under cards, I'd raise all-in, unless it's a really dangerous board.

Also, if you raise to $300 and get called and the flop is all under cards you almost have to think at that point that it's definitely worth going all in.

[taipan168]

Jacks are tough. I would raise to about $300 since you'll be out of position for the rest of the hand and hope to take it down right away. The nice thing is that it's early so if one or both go all-in, you can get away from it. It's way too early to push or call an all-in with JJ pre-flop. . If you call and then the flop is all under cards, I'd raise all-in, unless it's a really dangerous board.

Also, if you raise to $300 and get called and the flop is all under cards you almost have to think at that point that it's definitely worth going all in.

With the two callers, I don't like 3-betting then folding if you get shoved over because you spew off 20% of your stack for nothing. Worse would be if you get flat called and overcards come on the flop, you'll have no idea what to do because any reasonable c-bet would mean that half of your stack would be in the pot.

For this reason, and particularly because we will be OOP postflop, I like a call here to keep the pot size manageable.

[GatorJH]

I agree with Tai on this one. Don't be afraid to play OOP. Just flat call and play the hand accordingly.

I call. You think these donks will fold Tx on a T high flop?

[DarkHorse83]

You actually have odds to play for set value here since you only have to call 80 to win 1500+. That said, I'd call and get 'em in on an undercard flop.

i always get it in on undercard flops but it seems to always run into QQ+

At higher stakes I might fold this preflop. But at $3 buyin, all sorts could be raising and calling here, so I think you are jsutified in shoving if the flop leaves you with an overpair. A lot of the time you will get called by AK or lower pp's and get paid off.

I am a fish. Please explain why this is a fold at higher levels...i dont see the difference if you're playing JJ here primarily for set value.

[Luco]

Because donks will call with AK, AQ, Tx, any gutshot or better, and overpairs at low buy-in tourneys are like gold. At higher buy-ins a shove on a Txx board when you have the lowest overpair is a bit more worrying.

[DarkHorse83]

Because donks will call with AK, AQ, Tx, any gutshot or better, and overpairs at low buy-in tourneys are like gold. At higher buy-ins a shove on a Txx board when you have the lowest overpair is a bit more worrying.

Ok... I see what you are saying...but I was asking more from a set mining point of view Is calling for 80 that bad here? Even at higher levels?

If you miss you can play conservatively/decisively whatever the flop if you are concerned about an overpair no?

[GatorJH]

Because donks will call with AK, AQ, Tx, any gutshot or better, and overpairs at low buy-in tourneys are like gold. At higher buy-ins a shove on a Txx board when you have the lowest overpair is a bit more worrying.

Ok... I see what you are saying...but I was asking more from a set mining point of view Is calling for 80 that bad here? Even at higher levels?

If you miss you can play conservatively/decisively whatever the flop if you are concerned about an overpair no?

no, calling for set value at any level is ok here.

[JeffreyGB]

The issue with calling for set-value at higher levels could be that you're not getting paid off often enough when you hit. It's a balance of stack size, bet size, and opponent tendencies. The more willing your opps are to pay you off, the closer you can be to the actual 7.5 to 1 you are to flop your set.

IMO you shouldn't ever go past calling w/ 10 to 1 (i.e. fold getting 9 to 1), but against opps who won't pay off postflop, you need more than that.

In any case, here you're getting a sweet price at over 20 to 1 if you stack an opponent when you hit. Plus to make your play valuable, you don't have to stack them, but rather just get two streets of betting called and/or get a bet and a call from two opps.

This is definitely not a fold at any level. A reraise is often ok, but only if you're comfortable getting it in against the ranges you expect your opponents to turn up with.

[Gshark]

I'm raising to 4xbb to isolate and folding to a shove pf. Re-eval the flop depending what hits.

[JeffreyGB]

I'm raising to 4xbb to isolate and folding to a shove pf. Re-eval the flop depending what hits.

...It's already been raised to 5xbb and called...

[surviva316]

Jacks are tough. I would raise to about $300 since you'll be out of position for the rest of the hand and hope to take it down right away. The nice thing is that it's early so if one or both go all-in, you can get away from it. It's way too early to push or call an all-in with JJ pre-flop. . If you call and then the flop is all under cards, I'd raise all-in, unless it's a really dangerous board.

Also, if you raise to $300 and get called and the flop is all under cards you almost have to think at that point that it's definitely worth going all in.

i feel that float shouldn't be in your playbook at these buy-in's till you get solid reads on opps. i've been called down for my whole stack with A-high, GSSD's, BPTK, and so forth about a gazillion times before i learned to stop bluffing in early stages

[Skeeno]

I call and pretty much re-evaluate on the flop.

[Jack Sawyer]

i always get it in on undercard flops but it seems to always run into QQ+

"always" is indicative of results-oriented speak.

STFU. think rationally and logically.

[sethmundy]

i think that when you are playing in a sit and go the only hand you should be raising with in the first 3 blinds are AA and KK. even if you raise with QQ or JJ you are going to have a couple of people calling you with KJ or A7 crap because it is to early and the blinds are not big enough to make a raise that is big enough to get a value call with these hands. if you over raise pre with these hands you are only going to get called with a better hand or reraised. so just limp and see what the flop brings.

[GatorJH]

i think that when you are playing in a sit and go the only hand you should be raising with in the first 3 blinds are AA and KK. even if you raise with QQ or JJ you are going to have a couple of people calling you with KJ or A7 crap because it is to early and the blinds are not big enough to make a raise that is big enough to get a value call with these hands. if you over raise pre with these hands you are only going to get called with a better hand or reraised. so just limp and see what the flop brings.

This is horribly bad advice on so many levels.

[taipan168]

i think that when you are playing in a sit and go the only hand you should be raising with in the first 3 blinds are AA and KK. even if you raise with QQ or JJ you are going to have a couple of people calling you with KJ or A7 crap because it is to early and the blinds are not big enough to make a raise that is big enough to get a value call with these hands. if you over raise pre with these hands you are only going to get called with a better hand or reraised. so just limp and see what the flop brings.

This is horribly bad advice on so many levels.

+1. One of the key things in poker is getting people to put their money in with worse hands than you have. If I have QQ I WANT people to call preflop with KJ and A7 because they are putting their chips in with hands that I'm ahead of.