Switching to MTTs

[Illfavor]

I'm trying to find an alternate way to spend my poker study/playing time, and MTTs have worked well for me in the past and I was hoping to get back into it. I am a cash game player (50NL) and was wondering what the primary differences were.

I'm reading various strategy articles here and elsewhere and hearing a lot about pushing small edges over and over, and I was wondering if I could get some specifics on that. Are they simply meaning situations that are marginally +EV? If so I imagine that's a matter of range analysis and, pot odds and equity calculation?

Thanks for any help.

[drmcboy]

what articles were those?

Pushing small edges is what you do in cash games. You'll do it a lot in MTTs as well (I mean, it's poker) but there are times you should pass on small edges and even bigger ones if payouts become a factor.

Read Touney poker for advanced players

quick list of differences

swings, lots of small losses then huge wins as compared to (hopefully) small losses and slightly bigger wins much more often.

tilt - if you are the type who needs 30 minutes after getting aces beat it will hurt you more in tourneys since you may still be in and probably have 6 other tables you can't sit out at.

stack sizes are even more of a factor vs side games

table conditions change more often - the bubble, stack sizes, blind increases

you can't leave a bad seat

[Illfavor]

what articles were those?

- Everyone on the MTT digest here and on 2+2. I haven't searched the rest of the web though.

Pushing small edges is what you do in cash games. You'll do it a lot in MTTs as well (I mean, it's poker) but there are times you should pass on small edges and even bigger ones if payouts become a factor.

- I figured they were essentially the same.

Read Touney poker for advanced players

-Can do.

quick list of differences

swings, lots of small losses then huge wins as compared to (hopefully) small losses and slightly bigger wins much more often.

-Is it accurate I should expect to cash in about 1/8th of those I enter?

tilt - if you are the type who needs 30 minutes after getting aces beat it will hurt you more in tourneys since you may still be in and probably have 6 other tables you can't sit out at.

stack sizes are even more of a factor vs side games

table conditions change more often - the bubble, stack sizes, blind increases

you can't leave a bad seat

[drmcboy]

I'll just ignore the small edge thing because you don't seem to want to get into specifics.

I am 300/2000, 15% ITM. But % ITM, # of FTs, wins, etc doesn't really matter much. By the time your sample is legit hopefully you'll be much better anyway.

couple of my favorite links

http://www.pocketfives.com/poker-art...n-mtts-2426235

http://www.cardplayer.com/cardplayer...or-not-to-flip

http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/show...rt=1&PHPSESSID

[fjuanl]

Adjusting to your stack size and the players at your table is pretty important

Here's the Bond18 "Things it took me awhile to learn" series, its pretty good

http://www.tworags.com/article_32.html

[Illfavor]

drmcboy, I certainly didn't mean to give you the impression I didn't want to get into the specifics of small edges! It seems like a common theme and an important concept so I think I probably need to have good understanding of it to be as successful as I'd like to be in MTTs.

Thanks for the links guys!

[drmcboy]

I think you're seeing it because you want to see it. Like I said, give me some quotes or links. Mcat's small pairs article is not really in any way about pushing small edges and soupie's guide has about a zillion posts and IIRC if there is one theme it's mostly just aggression wins. That is still true but was VERY true when he wrote it and tourney players wore typically much worse than they are now. I did a quick skim of 1123's article since it's been years and again I'm not sure where you see the small edge stuff.

[Illfavor]

I think you're seeing it because you want to see it. Like I said, give me some quotes or links. Mcat's small pairs article is not really in any way about pushing small edges and soupie's guide has about a zillion posts and IIRC if there is one theme it's mostly just aggression wins. That is still true but was VERY true when he wrote it and tourney players wore typically much worse than they are now. I did a quick skim of 1123's article since it's been years and again I'm not sure where you see the small edge stuff.

I didn't realize you were asking for links, sorry.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/23...isdom-mtts-48/

The Early Stages section talks about it a lot, and that's where I started last night, so maybe I have the wrong impression :/.

[mcatdog]

Yeah the hard part isn't knowing the theory of how small of an edge to push, it's identifying which spots are actually +EV to put chips in the middle. The situations that come up are different from cash games, but the mentality is the same.

I usually tell people to start by learning how to play a <10 BB stack, then move on to learning about 15-20 BB play, and go from there.

[drmcboy]

early on a move that is + chip EV will almost always be +$ EV. the question of whether it is worth it to wait for "better" gambles (the Phil Hellmuth motto) is what most of those first couple posts are discussing - generally no, and almost certainly not when you are first starting out.

Keep reading that digest because middle and end stage play are not the same. You said in your second post you had read "everyone" of the articles here and there which doesn't seem to be the case. That's why I was confused.

Making the transition you're much more likely to make mistakes when you or others get short stacked and when the pay outs come in.

[Illfavor]

early on a move that is + chip EV will almost always be +$ EV. the question of whether it is worth it to wait for "better" gambles (the Phil Hellmuth motto) is what most of those first couple posts are discussing - generally no, and almost certainly not when you are first starting out.

Keep reading that digest because middle and end stage play are not the same. You said in your second post you had read "everyone" of the articles here and there which doesn't seem to be the case. That's why I was confused.

Making the transition you're much more likely to make mistakes when you or others get short stacked and when the pay outs come in.

Yea I meant I'd read every one here and some on 2+2. Sorry, I didn't mean to be so confusing ITT, but thank you for your numerous responses and ample guidance thus far.

I'll do what you guys suggested and learn about short stack play (up to 14BBs) and post all the questions I think of. I'll try not to worry about whether I'm pushing a small enough edge and maybe get the hang of this form of play first. I should probably crawl before I try and run.

[drmcboy]

HOH2 and/or Kill Everyone are good for short stack play although I'm sure these days you can find everything online as well.

mcat is right, learn the shorty stuff and when you and the other opps are deeper just pretend it's cash and you won't make too many mistakes. the good news is tourney players usually suck and you'll have them figured out in no time if you're beating 50 nl. probably at first you'll give them too much credit when the stacks are deeper