Discussion: Tools for Patience in MTT

[Bmxicle]

RE: http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ic.php?t=10215

Great post! you described alot of my flaws that i have as a mtt player. I think those percentage rules are a good idea, it gives people something structured to think about, even if they aren't perfect it gives them (and me) something to aim for.

[vqc]

Thanks aok, great post.

the whole meat on the bone thing was great. IF you have chips, your still in it, whether or not "your pot committed" for one hand. Although, Im not sure where I am personally able to draw the line between making a good play to stay in the tournament and just making a weak tight play. STill working on that.

[aokrongly]

Thanks aok, great post.

the whole meat on the bone thing was great. IF you have chips, your still in it, whether or not "your pot committed" for one hand. Although, Im not sure where I am personally able to draw the line between making a good play to stay in the tournament and just making a weak tight play. STill working on that.

Yea, we can always learn to play better. Thanks for the accolades. Hopefully it'll help.

Here's a mini AOkronlgy Digest:
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[aleksandr]

Great post! Sticky worthy maybe?

[TanO]

Awesome post aok, I found myself agreeing with every part of it.

I've been getting much deeper in MTT's recently by "letting the game flow to me" and being in the zone with that rather than pushing my luck and leaning on people all the time just because I have some chips and a speculative hand.

Excellent advice for anyone needing MTT pointers.

[DBL0SVN]

Graet post AOK. I like the idea of setting goals as to how many chips you need for ITM etc. Something definite to aim for.

Are you back to playing the game professionally or still takin a break?

[Theeggman]

Hi all, this is my first post. I've been lurking for a couple of months now and I just love the site. AOK thank you for this post. I think you hit the nail on the head for me here. I find in MTTs that I'll spend 3 hours accumulating chips and then get impatient/defensive and start contesting pots that I just shouldn't be in. This has happened to me in virtually every MTT that I reach the final 2 tables (I have yet to make a FT in a MTT). I'll be sitting on 20k-50k chips and think I'm the shit so I start worrying that someone's moving in on my blinds so I call and inevitably end up with a drawing hand that doesn't fill up. If only I had the discipline to keep up the kind of play that got me the chips in the first place (thanks to FTR ) I would probably make the FT.

For example, two nights ago I'm in a 258 player MTT and I'm 7th in chips with 16 players left w/Qc8c on the bb. I get one raiser from MP so I call and it's HU. Flop comes real raggy w/1 club. I figure I'll find out where he's at so I throw out a 1/2 pot bet and he calls. Turn: another raggy club. I bet the pot this time hoping he'll drop. He calls and I'm now left with about 3000 chips with a pot of about 25K. River comes: Xd. Should've check/folded (meat on the bone) but I went ai and he took it down w/Ace high. Picked up my 4 bucks and beat myself up for the play for the next few hours.

This is just one example of about 10 that I have and every time the result is the same (with the exception of the 20K chips I took with 74o on the bb when I flopped 2pr - to go on and bubble out in 27th b/c of my ill-timed aggression).

Side note: as far as calculating the chips I should have to reach the FT I just take the total tourney chips out and divide by 10 to give me the average.

Now, the question: Once it gets down to 10% of the original field, does the skill level of players go up or is it the same fishy AI-on-every-draw players that it starts out with? I play at Royal Vegas in the $1-$3 freezeouts (200-800 players) and I always feel out of my element when I reach the last 20 or so because the tables are shuffled and I assume the players are all sharks. Do I need to switch up my game or just keep playing the same tightish game I was playing? (maybe I should reread rippy's or rada's posts)

Again, thanks for the post and I hope to become a FTRr who actually contributes something very soon. Peace, and thanks for the great site.

[RHCNNN]

couldn't agree more... great post

[eeeee]

Great post, AOK!

Semi-Testimonial:

I suck at MTT's. Don't spend much money there, 'cuz it's -EV for me.
Just signed on at Party and they have a $5000 Freeroll for new players. I usually avoid these things, but the dead money in it was nice, and I knew it'd be somewhat limited enrollment. Problem was, I knew I could only play for an hour and 15 minutes, then I had to leave for an appointment.

I registered anyway, did the AOK math and figured with 1500 registered I should have 8600 to make the money (180 players deep ITM). It would take 22250 to get to the final 70, and 155K for the final table. My goal was to make it ITM, and return from my appointment to see if I was still in the game.

When play began, I pushed a little, and there were many absent players, so it was short handed play. After some swings, I settled down, more folks showed up to play, and I got into the game.

I eventually had an above average stack, but was only about 40% to my goal, and had only 5 minutes left to play. A couple risky all-ins (it is a freeroll after all) with 77 and AKo brought me up to 6800, just 1500 short of my ITM goal. I clicked Post and Fold and left for my appointment.

I got back home 2 hours later. I had ~just~ blinded out, 80-something-th place, and 100 players into the money. If I'd been there, I'm not sure I'd have done as well, but the combo of goals and patience (forced patience) was key to my tiny success.

I think I'll try again sometime when I have 4 hours to play.

{This post has been removed}

[boost]

aok, I didnt agree with you in DW's post, and maybe I just took your comments the wrong way. However I really liked this post, it seems to say the same thing in a different way. 'Dont know if that makes sense.

[Bmxicle]

This post should be stickied, i litterally had a calculator infront of my computer and i decided how aggressive i needed to be by the size of my stack compared to the blinds. I got my first "win" in a mtt today, it was a 200 person satelite for the 530 dollar tourney on pokerstars. I wouldn't have made it to the money without this post. So thanks alot!

[boost]

Indeed, this style of play is GREAT for satelites. And it gets the job done in normal FO's and rebuys too Im sure.

[Bmxicle]

I actaully managed to win two of them in one day for a total of $1060 tournament dollars, i guess i'm going to be playing alot of tourneys

[aokrongly]

Eggman, I could be wrong but I think early game fishiness is replaced by late game hyper-agression, and makes it a wash if you're playing good cards in both stages of the game. You can steal late, where early it's almost impossible. But playing quality and folding marginal edges is the play with both, except late you can raise with a marginal edge preflop and take the blinds from time to time, with position.

eeeeeeeeee, that has to be the best story I've heard this year. It will become one of my morality tales, that's for sure. I have no doubt I will embellish it. But your example is REAL and TELLING. Now imagine if you had been there and just played 3 super-quality hands during those 3 hours and they held up. Nothing else.

No worries BoostnSlide... I could be full of shit!!! lol

I'm glad you guys found the post valuable.

[Theeggman]

So do you think that late in the tourney protecting my BB w/Q8s (or any other marginal hand) when faced with a small raise is a bad idea? Should I just let it go PF as in the earlier stages? Thanks again for your insight.

[boost]

uhh.. there is no reason to 'protect my blinds' at any point in a tournament. Only if someone is repeatedly doing it, then you can put a move on them. however I would not do it without cards, and a lot of the time its better to do this post flop. Also, if you push over a late raise from BB it looks like you are sick of him picking on your blinds. However if someone steals from mid/late and you are button, you can restael here if they have been doing it a lot, and it doesnt look so obvious. I dont really suggest 'protecting' your own blind, its just pointless without cards.

[aokrongly]

Boost is right. "Protecting the BB" means going WAY over the top of that weak raise by button or SB. Calling is not protecting, ESPECIALLY if when the flop misses you or looks scary you'll fold to a bet or raise. There are people who do that. Call when I raise with junk to steal, and then fold when I bet with junk post flop. That's CRAZY!!!

I only protect when it's obvious I'm being picked on, and then I don't care what cards I have, generally. 3rd time the button or SB raises my BB just because there's no one else in the pot, I'm going over the top either AI or for more than half his chips. THAT'S how you protect. After that he'll only raise you with quality, so you know what you're up against if he raises and can play accordingly. (That's no rule, BTW. If I have a monster stack and couldn't care less about the blind then I'll fold it all day. No ego. But if you're getting bled to death, damn right you slam the door on the SOB.)

[jdubs]

AoKrongly,

Thanks! I used this advice today, and damn near got to the final table- it makes alot of sense, and though I finished just out of the money, believe I can use this strategy to win... Finished in the top 20 of a small (146 player) MTT..lost a coin flip situation with a very small stack. But being patient , and not getting involved when I didnt need to, took me along way!

JD

[Cavalry21]

- Instead I pace myself on my stack compared to the blinds and antes. Specifically, if the blinds and antes are less than 5% of my stack, or even 10% I'm not interested in playing with anything but monsters essentially, or doing some high probability blind steals. When the blinds get to 15% I'm looking for opportunities. At 20% I'm going to get active. This type of pacing keeps me from getting active unnecessarily, and that's a good thing.

Just reread your post because I'm not sure about something. I understand playing based on your stack vs. the blinds and not the chip leader. But When you say you don't get active until the blinds are 20% of your stack. Isn't "short-stacked" generally accepted as less than 10 big blinds. And you don't get active until you only have 5 big blinds left. Assuming a standard preflop raise is 3xBB you can't even do that twice. I guess what I'm asking is what do you mean by get active?

[aokrongly]

10Xbb advice is WRONG, according to me. And I'm talking about 15-20% of the combined blinds and antes here. So if the antes are $50 and the Blinds are 1000/2000, then you do the math on that.

The basic point is that people get too active with speculative hands too soon. Everyone is alternately looking for the big stack or freaking about because the blinds are getting big and they don't have it yet. They're wrong. 10xbb is wrong. And when the blinds are huge and your stack is say 5xbb, then you're pushing anyway, so what's the diff? Honestly?

anyway, I'm not looking for converts. i could be full of shit. Play your game and play it to the best of your ability. But it's 15-20% of blinds and antes that you LOOK to get very active. It doesn't mean you push over the top of an early raiser with 46s - which I'm sure you know.

[Theeggman]

Thanks boost & aok, I think it is ego getting in my way (and draining my stack). preciate the wisdom.

[Cavalry21]

AoK,

I wasn't trying to question your style, as much as understand it. This is one of my problems as well. I guess I was asking more what you mean by getting active, and playing anything but monsters.

{This post has been removed}

[aokrongly]

AoK,

I wasn't trying to question your style, as much as understand it. This is one of my problems as well. I guess I was asking more what you mean by getting active, and playing anything but monsters.

Good question. Here's what I mean when I talk about active play vs camping.

Active play is playing in alot of hands (whether with strength or without) this includes making pure "position" plays and "chip moves". A position play is going AI or raising big from the button with Ax or KT against the blinds, hoping the blinds will fold. Chip moves means coming over the top of someone who you think is weak even though you're weaker. In both those situations you do not want to see a flop or a showdown. If they give you resistance then you're probably beat. Generally when you're #1 goal is to get the other guy to fold because if he doesn't you're in trouble, then you're being "Active". The more trouble you'll be in if he calls you preflop, the more active you're being. AT is an active play when you raise it up. If you get called by AK, AQ or any pair then you're hoping from some bigtime help. If you get reraised preflop then you're probably laying it down. It's not a bad active play from say the button, but it is "active". I went AI over the top of a big raise with 83. That's a very "active" play. There are situations where playing AK is an Active Play. If you have 10k chips and someone with 8k chips goes AI in front of you, then calling that is VERY ACTIVE. If you have a choice of giving up a relatively little blind or calling in this situation, you need to decide if you NEED to gamble at this point.

Active vs non-active play is about Need. Do I "Need" to be involved in this pot at this time for this amount of chips? That's the question you have to answer correctly throughout a tournament. And there are two reasons why you should not be involved. #1 the chip amounts are too few relative to your stack. (such as making a move for the blinds). #2 the chips are too many relative to your stack and your read. (any under pair vs AK is a coinflip, do you need to coinflip at this point?)

Another form of active play is trying to buy pots post flop when your hand is missed. Depending on the situation or whatever it may be the right move, but it's active. You're hoping to buy the pot right there or improve with only 2 cards to come if you face resistence.

OK, so that's active play.

The opposite is "camping". When you camp you're folding everything but AA, KK, AK, QQ.... When you get down to middle pairs AT, etc you're playing them either not at all (based on the action) or much more cautiously. If you think you're beat (A flops when you have QQ), etc. then you're yielding. The goal here is stack conservation and buying time with your chips vs. buying chips with your chips with active play. You're not pushing over the top of a perceived weak hand just because you think it's weak and might fold. You're risking less chips, less often unless you have a powerhouse hand.

At any point YOU make the decision on how active you want to be with any given hand. Pacing like I talked about is a framework on how to generally approach how active you should be in general. Again, this doesn't mean you don't pop a little activity in here and there. But we've all see the goober who pushing AI preflop when the blinds are 10/20. He's risking all his chips for 30 chips in return. If he has TT, for instance, he's guaranteeing that he'll only be called by a better hand 9 times out of 10. That's stupid. Let's say, however, that he has 350 chips and the blinds are 100/50, and he's the small stack. At that point he's looking to gain almost 50% in chips if he wins and there's more of a chance that he'll be called by A high or two big cards and will be in a coinflip. Good choice on his part. If he runs into QQ, then that's the breaks.

So, let's say you have 20,000 chips and the blinds are 100/200. You have KQ 1 off the button. The blinds have been playing tight, but they'll call a 3x raise at times. So stealing means you need to come in for 1000 chips. What do you do. Well, right now the blinds are 300 chips, or less than 2% of your stack. What's the point in stealing them? They give you no substantial value, you're going to have to risk 5% of your stack to get them and you may end up being drawn into a hand that will eat up more of your chips as it plays out. Let's say you have that hand on the BB, and the button comes in for a 3x raise. Are you going to call? Go over the top? If you're camping you let the blinds go because there's no harm done and little relative value in making a move.

If, however, you have the same cards with 2000 chips, then the blinds represent 15% of your stack, so there's more reason to push. Or, if you're the one on the BB and you think the button is making a position move on you for 600 chips, then you push over the top for your 1800 remaining chips and get an even bigger relative payoff.

In one instance you let the blind go without a second thought (Camping). In the other you make a very active move to win the hand right there. Both situations involved the same 2 starting cards. But they involved very different strategic play from a game management standpoint.

Alot of times people DON'T know how to pace their game. They play loose with the stack and give it back. Or they play very active to get a stack and then can't turn off the the agression and end up losing it back. Very often people think they are in chip trouble when they really aren't, so they get active (and push a small edge) unnecessarily.

AA is a BIG EDGE. You can push with that all day. A9 is a SMALL EDGE. You're ace may hold up or it may not against say KJ, etc. The point of pacing is to not push small edged unnecessarily. Anytime you see two big stacks face off where one has a middle pair and the other has AKs, who made the mistake? THEY BOTH MADE A HORRIBLE MISTAKE. They were both playing small edges for large chips unnecessarily.

When you see someone with 99 on a small stack go AI against an early raise and 3 callers, he may Not be making a mistake. If he's getting 4 to 1 for his money and looking at quading up, then it's often a smart move.

That's the explanation. I'm not expert on when and how to make moves. That's what I'm working on now. But I know how to pace my play appropriately 90% of the time, which is what the post is about.

Good luck. And feel free to disagree. This is just one opinion of many.

[drmcboy]

^^^ quality.

[jdubs]

Aokrongly,

Thanks for that! I have been using your advice and doing OK, but still have trouble getting past that money bubble man. yesterday played near three hours in a rebuy, only to get busted out getting "active" when i was down to 10K chips and the blinds at 1200 (my 88 ran into AA on SB, my push was a steal move basically, but backfired when SB turned over AA!) I have been totally camping when blinds are less than 5 percent etc, but glad you recommend occasionally jumping in at this stage, as I may have missed opportunities with hands like KQ A 10 66 Ax suited, etc, by not even limping with them. Playing one in a minute here, we'll see how it goes

JD

[ender555]

good post

[black666]

great guide! Will try it this weekend on a tourney or 2

do you think the same tactic can be applied to a SnG too?

[boost]

hey tony, I just got 4th place in this 10$ fo, and I pretty much played like this, I dont know for sure why I played like this, I havent read this strat in weeks, and I dont really even like it. I dont really think its my style. However it can work beutifully. I didnt only tell my self to play tight and play smart, I actually believed it. I think thats the crucial factor in any strategy working, you MUST believe it. I was short stacked all the way throug the tournament. Rarely did I have an average stack, I think jsut after the first break I had around average. When I got ITM I had like 6k chips, I dont even know what average was at that point, but it sure as hell was more then 6k. I had about 7 times the big blind as I got itm. Typically I dont like to 'limp in the money'. However this time I didnt feel I had done this. I didnt get any oppurtunities to really get many chips earlier, and I was still around, thats a good thing I realized. I just relaxed, and let the chips come to me. 4 people handed me thier stacks, no joke. You can call that lucky if you want, but I believe that I was jsut patient enough to hit hands. And other people panic, and or completely didnt believe I hit a hand. I barely stole blinds the entire tournament. Why? it just didnt feel right, I had agressive tables, no reason to get stupid on an agressive table. I checked my stats at the final table, I think I had seen 6%, I was something like 15 of 16 won at show down and somewhere around 30 won without. 6%... I would normally laugh at that and told whatever tight ass that he cant win unless he plays some hands. I stand corrected.

Sorry for giving you so much heat buddy, I think I just took the post the wrong way, and on top of that I was just being close minded. Any sound strategy that you believe in and stick to will win you money.

[digitaldoc]

Boost is right. "Protecting the BB" means going WAY over the top of that weak raise by button or SB. Calling is not protecting, ESPECIALLY if when the flop misses you or looks scary you'll fold to a bet or raise. There are people who do that. Call when I raise with junk to steal, and then fold when I bet with junk post flop. That's CRAZY!!!

I only protect when it's obvious I'm being picked on, and then I don't care what cards I have, generally. 3rd time the button or SB raises my BB just because there's no one else in the pot, I'm going over the top either AI or for more than half his chips. THAT'S how you protect. After that he'll only raise you with quality, so you know what you're up against if he raises and can play accordingly.

Wow, wish I had re-read this last night when I was sitting next to you and you kept stealing my BB from the SB. I only min raised after your raise instead of pushing all in. We play, we learn and this was added to my book of MTT learning experiences. Thanks for the great post!

[boost]

eww.. min raising is not to be done. I really dont ever do it. not even with aces really.. Some people like to slow play thier aces like this, if it was raised before me Im doubling thier raise if not trippling it. I just dont see the use of minraising.

[Surf_Thug]

Great post man..

I've been trying to find an optimal strategy for MTT for quit some time, this sounds perfect for my style..

[Chicago_Kid]

Niiiiice post...seriously, this has helped me big time, AOK.

On Sat, finished 3rd out of a 170 in a Party Million Qualifier, using your 5, 10, 20 % rules and stealing mentality. 1 and 2 got the seat to the real tourney , but I got 20x payout on my buy-in in the last cash spot. 20 more buy-ins, baby!

[LittleJoe]

I've been lurking this forum for a while but now I must speak

This guide is GREAT!!!!! I has really helped my game. Just after reading it I went to play a 2-table sit 'n go and followed everything I had read. I know it's directed at MTT's but I just wanted to try it out. I was chipleader when we were 8 ppl left, got pushed all in preflop when I was holding AA by JJ and lost so I was small-stacked and really in trouble. This is when the reading really helped me. I didn't tilt, just waited for the right time to make moves and ended up winning it all =D.

Thanx bigtime aokrongly

[loanhorse]

AOK, great job! Having these pre set goals of pacing ones play is a crucial element in being a succesful at any MTT. By avoiding all unneccesary situation, by the percentage rule of thumb in which you gave I can save myself alot of chips in the long run and keep my butt in the mtt for a longer extent of time.


On a quick side note.. I would usually close the tournament lobby because I did not like basing my play on my position out of my competitors in the MTT. I will now change this aspect of my game due to your post. Since I am no longer following position but blind structure the tournament window can stay open! Again, an AMAZING post. TY!! TY!! TY!!

[ZenOffsuit]

Can someone Please STICKY THIS POST!!

[digitaldoc]

I second this thread for an edit and sticky! Great post!

[DBL0SVN]

doesn't need to be stickied - I'm going to keep bumping it to the top! Won my first MTT as a result of following this advice.

[ZenOffsuit]

doesn't need to be stickied - I'm going to keep bumping it to the top! Won my first MTT as a result of following this advice.

That's great.....Fill us in!

[stuck]

Is this ever going to be stickied?

[vqc]

If hte mods ever come along and pay enough attention to the threads, then yes, it might get stickied. Ill see if i can get someones attention.

[loanhorse]

I have been giving turbos a try. Turbo MTTs start to become total luckfest towards end of game and this strategy can seemingly never apply! IF anyone has mastered the art of turbos mtt, I will bow down and call you GOD...

[vqc]

Read the ripptyde sticky at the top of this forum.

mods could u please, please, please, cut all the crap out of this thread and sticky AOKs post.

[eeeee]

Bumped for value -- I really had to search to re-find this post.

[DBL0SVN]

^^^

[ensign_lee]

I have a question. How do you calculate where you should be when R+A's are concerned?

[digitaldoc]

I have a question. How do you calculate where you should be when R+A's are concerned?

I actually use a simple spreedsheet that calculates total number of chips in the tournament. I make the calculations at the end of the rebuy period.

Add the following:
# of Entires x Initial Chips
# of Rebuys x Rebuy Chips
# of Add-ons x Add on Chips

An example from Poker Stars $10+1 Rebuy might be like this:
1304 Entries x 1500 Chips = 1,956,000
2985 Rebuys x 1500 Chips = 4,477,500
807 Add-ons x 2000 Chips = 1,614,000

Total Chips = 8,047,500

If the tourny pays out to 135 places, then divide total chips / 135.
ITM Chip Average = 59,600 (Approximately)

If final table has 9 players then:
FT Chip Average = 895,000 (Approximately)

You get the picture.

[Miffed22001]

doesnt your site show you how many chips in total are in play and how much each place gets paid?

[aokrongly]

rebuys are crazy, generally i like it if i triple up first hour, but don't press for it. I've made a number of final tables from the minimum r/a chips after the first hour. So it's not as important as you might think. the real value in having a larger stack is that you have more time to catch cards. don't get into a big stack mentality during the first 2 hours of a r/a, think "easy come easy go". that's what generally happens. when i was watching NO ONE in the top 10 after the first hour made the final table. That's Zero. Nada. Zilch. you can loosen up during the r/a period if you want, but be prepared ot rebuy. The down side is that many people end up buying in repeatedly. Most of my final tables in r/a I didn't have to add any more money than the initial buyin plus immediate rebuy and the add-on after the first hour. Tourney were i rebuy repeately i'm generally not playing well enough to get through the field regardless of my stack after the first hour. My recommendation is to just survive and win a few pots during the first couple hours then calculate both you goal AND the time you have to get there. Generally you have tons of time during the middle and early itm in r/a. Don't get in a hurry. Late the blinds will be so huge that just stealing will be more than the "big stack" in the first hour.

[digitaldoc]

doesnt your site show you how many chips in total are in play and how much each place gets paid?

I'm not sure if Stars does, but I use the spreadsheet anyway because it calculates all my chip goals for me. I also use it to track the blind levels and what zone level I'm in as far as betting goes.

[JJ 713]

thanks for the great advice

has helped my play a lot to set chip goals

[renegaderob1]

Just started moving away from ring cames and experimenting with MTTs and SNGs... this post helped me enourmously!! Thanks an tonne!

Before I read this, I was playing nice tight poker, but as soon as the blinds started going up I would start to get worried that I was below average chips (if I hadn't caught cards) and would loosen up my starting hand requirnments waaaay to early, looking for a coinflip at best.

Now I am more than happy being below the average chip count as long as I keep looking for my spot to push!!

Recently I played in 4 MTTs and had my best results so far:

122 out of 1654
80 out of 800
40 out of 500
14 out of 50

No ITM placings, but I feel it's a matter of time and it's all been a learning curve... I'll still play my usual ring games, but will definately give MTTs more of a chance now!

Thanks again aokrongly

Edit: bubbled out of a 600 person tourny (AQ > QQ and AJ > QK on Q73 flop)... I will keep playing til I finally crack ITM... then final table...then a win

[renegaderob1]

Fianlly cracked the final table and ITM and came 2nd!

seriously could not have done it without this post aokrongly, you are a god!
It wasn't a big tourny, but still...

my flopped set got cracked by runner runner straight in the end, so I now know I can win these!!

[biondino]

I wish I'd re-read this thread last night - up to 30th out of 100 in a 467-man MTT and I decided to utterly bluff the chip leader - who hit an ace on the river AFTER I'd decided to fire the third barrel with less than nothing. I am an idiot.

[jmontis]

the benefit of playing tight and patiently, lets you pull off re-steals later on, which is sometimes mandatory when normal blind steals aren't possible (aggro players)

[Hofinger]

I noticed you had dozens of similar posts and thought briefly that yet another along the same lines may be pointless, but next to Harringtonons book one on tournaments- which I personally credit with making me $1400 dollars and I have only owned it for a week !! This is the best MTT advice I have read in a long time!

Very well done great job!

[Quillspirit]

Excellent post!

I have been off my game in MTT's, going from Final Table finishes to out in 50% range of players. Part of it I think is tilt, the other greed. I appreciate the reminder to be patient, and it is a great idea to set chip goals.

I have a Round 2 freeroll tourney coming up in a few minutes, against about 200 players... I need to finish in the top 4.

(Round 3 winners get a $10,000 seat in the 2006 WSOP events) - wish me luck!

[Operandi]

10Xbb advice is WRONG, according to me. And I'm talking about 15-20% of the combined blinds and antes here. So if the antes are $50 and the Blinds are 1000/2000, then you do the math on that.

First of all, thanks for a great post.

I have a qustion regarding the calculation of the "combined blinds and antes". I have read the entire thread several times but still can't figure out how to calculate this.

What I don't get is how to view the ante: Should I add the antes that are in the pot when everyone at the table have posted (i.e. total = the size of the pot) or just add the ante cost for myself, for one hand? Example 100/200 ante 25, 9 players at the table:

Alternative 1: 100 + 200 + 9 * 25 = 525
Alternative 2: 100 + 200 + 25 = 325

The fact that it says "combined blinds and antes", i.e plural, seems to indicate alt 1 but there is no mention of including the number of players at the table in the calculation, so there are conflicting indications.

The reason I'm asking i that there is a significant difference in calculation results depending on what alternative is chosen.

Stack size: 2625
9 players at the table

Calculation No Antes (Level 6 in PokerStars' tourney structure):
Blinds: 100/200
(100 + 200) / 2625 = 11,43% => Recommendation: Camp

Calculation With Antes (Level 7 in PokerStars' tourney structure)::
Blinds: 100/200
Ante 25

Alternative 1:

((100 + 200) + 9*25) / 2625 = 20% => Recommendation: Get active

Alternative 2:

((100 + 200) + 25) / 2625 = 12,38% => Recommendation: Camp (maybe Look for opportunities)

Alternative 1 also has the consequence that it would recommend less active play with fewer players at the table which doesn't seem right.

So, which is it?

[digitaldoc]

Most people consider it Alternative 1. It's really the total pot before any action on the table is started.

In your last example, you would want to get active soon. Keep in mind with any tool you use, wether it is this one, pot odds, starting hand requirements or M, they are just that tools. Use them when appropriate. An example maybe the blinds went up, dropping your calculation down to around 10%, you're on the button with Queenss and UTG raises 3x, Mid position raises all-in and the cutoff goes over the top of that. No you have to factor in a lot of different concepts and tools to reach your decision on what to do.

[Sprayed]

So are you guys saying that when you camp you are playing only big broadway cards and when you get active you are playing more small pairs and suited connectors? I put Aok's strat to use and made the money a few times but can't get to the big dance. I think that I am not getting active fast enough and only playing paint. I usually get to the money when the bbs are 20% of my stack. Also, when the blinds start to get big I am only raising when I enter, a la michael1123 strat. I either get reraised when I have connectors or small pp or I don't hit on the flop.

When you guys get active what are you getting active with? Kxs, Axs, connectors, pp, etc.?

[digitaldoc]

So are you guys saying that when you camp you are playing only big broadway cards and when you get active you are playing more small pairs and suited connectors? I put Aok's strat to use and made the money a few times but can't get to the big dance. I think that I am not getting active fast enough and only playing paint. I usually get to the money when the bbs are 20% of my stack. Also, when the blinds start to get big I am only raising when I enter, a la michael1123 strat. I either get reraised when I have connectors or small pp or I don't hit on the flop.

When you guys get active what are you getting active with? Kxs, Axs, connectors, pp, etc.?

Really sounds like you're playing it about right. AS you get more experience you'll realize and be able to spot opportunities that present themselves later in tournaments that can lead to growing your chip stack. It's hard to give you solid advice with out watching your play, but I will give you this assignment. Start watching a tournament in a similar buy-in range as you play. When it gets to the later stages of the tournament, try spotting opportunities where a bet or a play at the pot where you could have gained some chips not knowing what the whole cards are. You'll start to notice that there are specific betting patterns that you hate to play against. Start using these same betting patterns against other players.

As a general rule that I use for guiding my play and making a decision to play a pot is:

Do I have 2 of the 3 following criteria?
1.) Folding equity (aka first in vigorish and stack size).
2.) Position
3.) Good Cards

If it's later in a tourney and it's folded around to me in the cutoff or button and I have T6o or Q6o I'll raise it up to 3x. I have folding equity and position so I raise. If raising commits me to the pot, then I'll push instead of 3x. Now the blinds need a good to great hand to play. Keep in mind that the tools for patience are used to get you into position in a tourney were more aggressive play is rewarded and required.

[Sprayed]

Man, your answering all of my posts! I haven't been paying attention to my stack size when I raise to steal. What is the ratio of bb to stack size that would require me to push instead of 3x it. Am I looking for a red or orange zone M or if following Aok's similiar strat 15%-20% of bb to stack?
Thanks

[TheProdigy87]

That post made me feel all tingly inside.

[Easy17]

excellent posts AoK. I recently went on a winning streak where i won 5 of 7 5 table SnG's and finished fourth in the 180 person, and wrote down some notes about what i was doing.

The first note was, Patience.

I recently started looking at everything else but i am starting to believe the rest is just bullshit. Patience is Godly, including the patience to never never, never give up or panic when low on chips. Your next two cards could be AA.

Great posts again thanks

[Phantaroth]

Very good advice, I was starting to get angry and go on tilt when I read this and it really helped me re-focus. Hopefully I can get ITM in this one because I haven't been doing too good latley.

[ewdesign]

First of all, yes this was a VERY good post. Patience is the key. As far as your play compared to the blinds some who need a little help playing this should read Dan Harringtons series of books on advanced tournament play. He breaks the play into zones of algebraic representation. There's also a guy on this site who made a tool to calculate your zone( I support using your head) on the spot. It's in the "Poker Tools" section of the forums I think under M and Q calculator.

Anyway great thread. It's good to hear something other than when pushing all in is a good idea. It seems sometimes that all ins are the only reason some people even sit down at the tables.

[bluedevil907]

This post and a few others of aok's have single-handedly made my MTT game a thousand times better.

I'll probably post up some select hands for comments later, but so far:

51/1397 $1.10 PStars (My AK lost to J5, otherwise would have been in FT position)
215/1946 $.50 PStars (still going and in great shape)

Very selective aggression and extracting chips on monsters/nuts. At the low limits = $$

[LordVTR]

I started applying aok's patience mantra and really try to think hard about when to get involved in hands. My ROI at the $4.40 180 seats on stars has skyrocketed in the last 40 tourneys with several FTs and money finishes. Granted, I have often got to the bubble as one of the shorter stacks, but by playing this style I am getting the chance to make the FT a lot more often than I used to when I worried far too much about how big my stack was compared to everyone elses.

[disishtokie]

Thanks so much for this post.. I needed to get a more clear and focused overview of MTT tactics because I found that I would play patiently,correctly ( and overall ITM ) but only when I had a strong start. ( Getting lucky early and building a large chipstack within the hour, or steadily building up to the 1st break with at least a lil over the average chipstack at that time ) But if I wasn't getting any cards or was the victim of donkplays/bad beats/ or just plain unluckiness, it would slowly start to loose my patience, make bad/desperate plays, and eventually get out knocked out.

Your post REALLY helped me to get an idea of what I need to do to tweak my MTT strategy; So that I could be more consistent and ultimately have more control over my tournament finish.
thanks~

disishtokie

[Aqqachar]

Great quality post!
This is an article that a beginner like me needs.