not sure what to do here

[Extremophile]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00+$0.20 Tournament, 50/100 Blinds (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Button (t3225)
Hero (SB) (t3090)
BB (t350)
UTG (t3052)
UTG+1 (t3720)
MP1 (t2310)
MP2 (t6435)
MP3 (t2638)
CO (t500)

Hero's M: 20.60

Preflop: Hero is SB with J, 6
7 folds,

Hero?

[WeaselT]

i think u letting go of 50 chips with ur stack is just fine. i think that guy is on his way out anyways, why possibly waste 350 chips here.

[taipan168]

Just put the BB all in and be done with it. I think you'll find that this is +EV regardless of whether the BB calls loose or tight.

[Extremophile]

Why is it + EV ? I don't remember exactly but there was a table about it.

[Bradley]

Just put the BB all in and be done with it. I think you'll find that this is +EV regardless of whether the BB calls loose or tight.

Can you elaborate? I know J6o is about a coinflip to ATC(which he basically has) and we get a chance to knock him out which won't cost a lot of chips compared to our stack.. I think this is one of those basic SNG Wiz thingys that you gotta study over and over.

Maybe you could explain it better than me

[taipan168]

Firstly, what is the payout structure of this tourney? Doesn't seem to be a regular 1-3 table tourney.

The reason it's +EV whether he calls tight or loose is that if he calls tight you win the blinds uncontested a lot of the time and if he calls loose you're likely to be ahead of whatever he has.

[Extremophile]

It is a 3-table SNG. I understand you argument. Now, I have two questions:

1) If we assume that he calls 100% of the time, what is the position of my hand?

2) What would be the worst possible hand I can have in this situation so that it gives me +EV?

[Extremophile]

Well actually there is a 3rd question: If you were the BB, what would be the worst hand for you to call my shove and expect a +EV?

[WeaselT]

PokerStove says J6o against any random hand is 47% to 52%. so i guess your flippin but you have fold equity too, dunno what wiz says my trial expired :P. i dunno id take it on personal preference.

[surviva316]

It is a 3-table SNG. I understand you argument. Now, I have two questions:

1) If we assume that he calls 100% of the time, what is the position of my hand?

2) What would be the worst possible hand I can have in this situation so that it gives me +EV?

SnG Wiz
that shiz
homey

[Extremophile]

It is a 3-table SNG. I understand you argument. Now, I have two questions:

1) If we assume that he calls 100% of the time, what is the position of my hand?

2) What would be the worst possible hand I can have in this situation so that it gives me +EV?

SnG Wiz
that shiz
homey

Are these that difficult questions ? I mean, I thought someone can answer these questions without a program.

[Wolle]

It is a 3-table SNG. I understand you argument. Now, I have two questions:

1) If we assume that he calls 100% of the time, what is the position of my hand?

2) What would be the worst possible hand I can have in this situation so that it gives me +EV?

SnG Wiz
that shiz
homey

Are these that difficult questions ? I mean, I thought someone can answer these questions without a program.

I have the definite answer for your questions: It depends. :P

Given that this is a 3-table tourney, we can't readily apply ICM without knowing the chip stacks at the other table. We could try calculating the chip equity, though.

It'll cost you 300 chips to put him all in, and you'll win 400 if you win, so your showdown equity needs to be at least 300/700 = 42.86%. J6o has 47.84% against a random hand, so that's fine. As for the weakest? 'What are the hands that has at least 42.86% equity against a random' is pretty hard to answer without a program. T4o makes the grade. So does 86o. (I did use a program to find the equity of the hands, but PokerStove is free, at least.)

If this were an STT, we could use ICM. If you fold, your equity will be 12.40% of the prize pool. If you push and he calls your equity will be 11.28% if he wins and 13.87% if he loses. So your showdown equity needs to be 1.47/2.59 = 56.76%. That means J6o isn't good enough. You'll need something like QTo, JTs, or 44. (I've used a prize structure of 50/30/20 for these calculations.)

[Extremophile]

If this were an STT, we could use ICM. If you fold, your equity will be 12.40% of the prize pool. If you push and he calls your equity will be 11.28% if he wins and 13.87% if he loses. So your showdown equity needs to be 1.47/2.59 = 56.76%. That means J6o isn't good enough. You'll need something like QTo, JTs, or 44. (I've used a prize structure of 50/30/20 for these calculations.)

Thanks for the reply. I understand the first part of your explanation but could you explain how you get the numbers above? What does "your equity will be 12.40 % of the prize pool" mean? If you give me a link or a book name that would be nice, too.

[surviva316]

It is a 3-table SNG. I understand you argument. Now, I have two questions:

1) If we assume that he calls 100% of the time, what is the position of my hand?

2) What would be the worst possible hand I can have in this situation so that it gives me +EV?

SnG Wiz
that shiz
homey

Are these that difficult questions ? I mean, I thought someone can answer these questions without a program.

it's not "that difficult of a question" per se, it's just that these are the exact sort of things you can fiddle around with on your SnG Wiz that'll help you develop a better feel for how ranges affect your tournament decisions.

[Extremophile]

It is a 3-table SNG. I understand you argument. Now, I have two questions:

1) If we assume that he calls 100% of the time, what is the position of my hand?

2) What would be the worst possible hand I can have in this situation so that it gives me +EV?

SnG Wiz
that shiz
homey

Are these that difficult questions ? I mean, I thought someone can answer these questions without a program.

it's not "that difficult of a question" per se, it's just that these are the exact sort of things you can fiddle around with on your SnG Wiz that'll help you develop a better feel for how ranges affect your tournament decisions.

Thanks for the reply. I just wanted to learn the logic behind. I might be helpfull with the live poker as well. I didn't think it would be related to the prize pool. I still don't understand how it is related to the prize pool.

[drmcboy]

I still don't understand how it is related to the prize pool.

chips in a tournament are not the same as money.

Pretend you get 10 chips when you enter a $10 tourney with 30 players. At the end if you are the winner - holding all 300 chips - do you win $300? No, because of the payouts for the other places. So the chips have lost value.

Because of this there are times in poker tournaments when a + chip EV play (A plan that earns you chips over time) may lose money over time because the chips you risked were worth more money than the ones you gained - said differently losing the pot in question is much worse that winning it.

This is where ICM comes in and why you use stuff like SNG Wiz because it helps to figure out the pots where chip and $ EV differ.

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es-t17868.html

there are also links here

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...aq-t15929.html

[Extremophile]

Because of this there are times in poker tournaments when a + chip EV play (A plan that earns you chips over time) may lose money over time because the chips you risked were worth more money than the ones you gained - said differently losing the pot in question is much worse that winning it.

I loved this explanation, thank you. And thanks for the links, too. There is an explanation in depth about how ICM works.