Running deep in tournaments WITHOUT the cards

[AK_suited]

I know from experience that it is hard as hell to make it deep in some of these 180+ player mtts, and its even harder to do when you are card dead. So how do you do it when the deck is not in your favor? Do you play SUPER TAG? How do you compensate for bad luck. My 2 cents on the subject:

1. Play in position as much as posible.

2. Pay close attention to the players and how they are playing(I.e. Tight,loose,passive, etc..)

3. Play the board and what your opponents most likely doesn't have.

4. Try not to go to the river unless you actually did land a hand (showing down a bluff will crush your image. bad cards + bad luck + bad image * donks = MEGATILT) not good for your game.

5. Don't force the issue let the situation dictate what you do.

6. Be calm the cards can't duck you forever but when you do get them don't make it so obvious play it the same.

7. And most importantly of all dodge the donks at all cost they will kill your stack and make you want to throw your pc out the window.

I would love to hear others tips on the subject it could be interesting.

[sinister1]

* 1) Win showdowns

[hopeful]

Truth is you cant win the 180's with out a bit of luck, I have won 5 and in each of them I had a least one miracle card to save me. It takes about 3 hours to get to the money so you will be dealt about 150 hands and you will get a top 5% starting pair about 7 times on average. Thats just not enough times. You have to use position, make moves and sometimes just go for it if you are going to win. Some thoughts in answer to your list.
1. Position is all important however when bluffing first to act can be good
2. agreed
3. Most of the time he doesnt have anything be prepared to act.
4. You have to show down some bluffs otherwise opponents will not call your big bets.
5. Patience is a virtue but when the m is low you can do with out it, in fact actively look to get all your chips in.
6. If you wait to long your stack will be too small for the cards to matter.
7. Be careful how you label people, they may make a play you dont agree with but they will have had a reason. Chances are their reasoning is good some of the time.

[AK_suited]

4. I say don't go to the river without the nuts because if you keep showing bluffs, you are going to be forced to catch cards to continue playing the way you have been and only lord knows when your cards are finally going to hit, your right that showing will get you action, you just don't want action at the wrong time which leads some people over playing hands and being forced to a choice when they really don't have the hand too.

6. This statement was not meant to give the impression that you have to wait for the cards it was meant to have self control "don't go on "boredom" tilt and forcing action its murder on the stack.play a controled game and when you get the cards stick to the story.
7. You know what I mean when I say that those people who go allin Q3s preflop and catch a flush to crush your QQ (happened lastnight) people that fit in that category whateva there "reasoning is nothing can justify making moves like that early in a tourney when doubling up there means absolutely bumpkis when you still have 2-3 hrs of play left

[mcatdog]

There's a lot of skill involved in picking the right spots to steal when people are the most likely to fold to you, but ultimately there's always a chance you run into a hand, and if everyone folds because they didn't have the cards to play back at you, that's just another form of getting good cards. It's not possible to go deep in a tournament without the cards falling your way and it retards your growth as a player when you assume that it is.

[AK_suited]

Very true about the skill that is needed to go deep, but in the same sentence you can hold top 5% of the hands and still miss the board completely, AK, KT, AQ and all hands like these are all top 10% hands that need to mature. So if you if you have been card dead and basicly nitting around waiting for broadway hands you are going A. Blind yourself out and B. Get stiffed on the action you want. To go around saying you "need" hands like these to win is not all true. What I do agree that you need is the board to co-operate with what you want to do with the particular oponent. Catching premium hands w/ help from the board makes this easier. But that's the beauty of poker so many variable so many different syles. Its WAR. Everyone attacks differently but what's similar is that is hard to run deep while catching bricks

[Roco415]

You know what I mean when I say that those people who go allin Q3s preflop and catch a flush to crush your QQ (happened lastnight) people that fit in that category whateva there "reasoning is nothing can justify making moves like that early in a tourney when doubling up there means absolutely bumpkis when you still have 2-3 hrs of play left

for what its worth, this line of thinking will also hold you back IMO. I have been one of the people you may see with the Q3 suited...and in many instances its completely justified. Theres a huge difference between calling off with a hand and shoving it. Make sure you havnt become a cookie cutter player only following the hand ranking charts. People will catch on and run circles around you.


Roco

[AK_suited]

Believe me roco I'm far from cookie cutter player but I don't know about moves like that early in a tourney i understand that some people try to get a huge stack I just feel its a mistake in that situation there are good times for moves like that but I feel that ealry tournament with no read with a whole lot of time to gain a massive stack. I'm like you I feel that if your "solid" by the book then you are predectable. To me a solid player has many styles and plays them all well

[Roco415]

oh deifnitely, i wasnt coming at you by anymeans...and agreed definitely a time and a place.

Just wasnt sure of your philosophy from the way you phrased that last part.


To continue the discussion, I definitely feel like the tourneys that II have won...Ive gotten a stack early and been able to have made those "moves" mid tourney to further increase my stack and accumulate

[AK_suited]

I completely agree if you know how to use the stack its a great tool early where you can pressure the small stacks and rush the blinds. Having a huge stack helps greatly but some people get the misconception that if you get a big stack that you guarenteed a top spot. Not true you have to use your weapons wisely

[baudib]

7. And most importantly of all dodge the donks at all cost they will kill your stack and make you want to throw your pc out the window.

This is bad advice IMO. You'd rather only play pots against good players?

My addition:
1. Get it all-in preflop with AK whenever you can.
2. Profit.

[AK_suited]

7 means not to play back at people who don't understand the moves its a waste of chips if your making a move on a nice board if they are going to call you anyways

[baudib]

Bad players call when they should fold. It's probably the most profitable situation imaginable.

[AK_suited]

It is the most profitable situation imaginable I'm not disagreeing with you but that statement you say fits when you have a good hand or you have good pots odd and probabilities then its good to have those type of donators in a pot with you but when you are card dead and not really hitting much you don't want to play hand against people who are going to call you down with TP when the board showes a straight flush or higher is possible. Its just not A

[baudib]

card dead and not really hitting much you don't want to play hand against people who are going to call you down with TP when the board showes a straight flush or higher is possible. Its just not A

I don't know what the hell this means. When a donk raises from UTG, are you going to fold AK because you're "card dead and not hitting much"?

Build big pots with big hands
Play small pots with small hands

Use position and cheap pots to make monster when they'll call down with TP or worse.

[mcatdog]

It is the most profitable situation imaginable I'm not disagreeing with you

That's not what you said in the OP, you said you should just get out of the way when a bad player is in the pot. If folded to me on the button and the BB sucks, I'm raising with almost anything because I WANT him to call and play like shit postflop. Most of the time he won't have a good hand either, do you really think you can't outplay a bad player in position when neither of you has a good hand?

[AK_suited]

Ok @ baubid I think that something was missed or I wasn't clear this post was not about "standard normal situation" play where you are getting your fare share of paint and you want to play them for max profit I agree with that. What I'm talking about are those day when your best card where (J9, T8) hands that fall into that category and how people would survive in a tournament getting nothing but the rags. This is in no way shape or form an advice post I wanted to hear older opinon on the topic I would never tell people not to play there big hands big it only make sense but that's not the situation I'm talking about because I'm sure like myself we have all been in tournaments where we were sweating it out because for some odd reason A6o really loved you that day. How do survive 3+ hrs seeing maybe 1 or 2 really premium hands.

And to mcat @ I never said I couldn't outplay people postflop what I said was when you are getting bricks the whole night and you want to tell a story tell it on someone who is going to listen. Please keep in mind that talking about trying to "steal" a pot post flop without risking your stack when you have air. Imo when your not getting much I feel you must protect your stack. And to build it at the lowest cost possible maybe my wording is confusing. How would you play a tournament when you are not being loved by the poker gods?

[baudib]

I go back to what mcat said; thinking you can just make the magic happen when you literally get no cards is probably not helpful. You're going to need some combination of cards+luck to win.

Pick your spots to steal. Play your good hands strongly. Learn good shortstack play.

[AK_suited]

That's essential what I said "play smart" but I wanted to elaborate more I didn't want to leave it as "play smart" I wanted to give example of what I try to do when I get dealt bricks. And I was hoping to get more examples of what other people do when that b*tch variance hits them. When this happens you always need a lot of luck to come out on top but you need to survive a lil in order to get lucky.

[Fielmann]

I have a feeling this whole topic is pointless.
Each hand you play in a tournament is a separate issue. The way you play it is dependent on a number of things (your opponents and their actions, your position, stack-sizes, your actual hand, your table-image etc.) It should, however, never be directly dependent on how lucky have been so far in the tournament or, worse, how lucky you "feel" about the hands you are about to get.
When you have bad luck, your play will become different, but this difference should emerge naturally from factors listed in the brackets above. For example, as your M gets lower (one very common result of bad luck) you must become more aggressive. At the same time, if you've had to fold a lot, because you haven't had good cards, this has changed your table towards "tight", which, in turn, also means you can be more aggressive and expect to get away with it.
That's how it should work. Changing your play "artificially" according to luck, which this topic seems to suggest, is incorrect.

[mcatdog]

And to mcat @ I never said I couldn't outplay people postflop what I said was when you are getting bricks the whole night and you want to tell a story tell it on someone who is going to listen. Please keep in mind that talking about trying to "steal" a pot post flop without risking your stack when you have air. Imo when your not getting much I feel you must protect your stack. And to build it at the lowest cost possible maybe my wording is confusing. How would you play a tournament when you are not being loved by the poker gods?

I never said I try to steal big pots against calling stations. I said I steal their blinds with junk because when they call with junk, I'll be able to keep the pot small when my junk doesn't make the best hand, and build the pot when my junk improves, because I'm better than them at poker. Who said we have air? Now just because we've missed the last 5 flops in a row means we're going to miss the next one as well so we fold preflop instead? Why even play in the first place if you're so confident you're going to lose? I never feel like I "am not being loved by the poker gods" because I don't believe that one's luck in tournaments has to do with gods, hot streaks, cold streaks, black cats, ghosts, witches, hobgoblins, demons, Santa Claus, or the tooth fairy.

[AK_suited]

This topic was not ment to justify luck in tournament play, it was to get an idea how people shift their games when they aren't getting the best cards or hitting enough flops. And to give a few examples on what they do. We all know skill gets you into the best positions when you play, but when you catch your mid set against someone who hit top 2pair that's a little lucky. You can make the smart choice by set mining when you have the odds but you got lucky enough that an opponent caught top 2 and chipped off to you its a little bit of both. Because you can spend 90% of your time grind up the ranks in a tourney and all it take is I bad beat or one runner runner to put you in the grave. I never go into a game feeling defeated but I do try to keep myself in the best position possible. With what tools I have available.

[dthorne04]

Basically for anyone reading this thread or any in the MTT forum on here, just read mcats posts and copy his mindset toward tournaments, and poker in general.

[FateAver]

7. And most importantly of all dodge the donks at all cost they will kill your stack and make you want to throw your pc out the window.

This is bad advice IMO. You'd rather only play pots against good players?

My addition:
1. Get it all-in preflop with AK whenever you can.
2. Profit.

there are some of players will all in with any kind of hand to double their chips in early game
and it's not fun to lose to a hand like Q5 , J9 , 87 and out from tournament early

[Sprayed]

7. And most importantly of all dodge the donks at all cost they will kill your stack and make you want to throw your pc out the window.

This is bad advice IMO. You'd rather only play pots against good players?

My addition:
1. Get it all-in preflop with AK whenever you can.
2. Profit.

there are some of players will all in with any kind of hand to double their chips in early game
and it's not fun to lose to a hand like Q5 , J9 , 87 and out from tournament early

It's not fun but:
Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

328,762,368 games 0.005 secs 65,752,473,600 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 68.026% 67.79% 00.24% 222861804 782484.00 { AKs, AKo }
Hand 1: 31.974% 31.74% 00.24% 104335596 782484.00 { Q5o }

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

328,762,368 games 0.005 secs 65,752,473,600 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 64.874% 64.65% 00.22% 212553360 726552.00 { AKs, AKo }
Hand 1: 35.126% 34.91% 00.22% 114755904 726552.00 { J9o }

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

328,762,368 games 0.005 secs 65,752,473,600 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 62.853% 62.66% 00.20% 205986336 650562.00 { AKs, AKo }
Hand 1: 37.147% 36.95% 00.20% 121474908 650562.00 { 87o }

gamboooooooooooool!

[Jepulator]

I like the subjest actually. I find mysrelf running well (lucky lol) early in tournaments then later on going card dead. i tend to find myself getting blinded away then taking risks too late in the game when my stack has no fold equity. I do understand where you're coming from AK and i myself tend to follow the same types or rules

[FateAver]

Yes , it's gamble
but the risk still high
I prefer do that early on TURBO (most of times I do it here)
but when playing normal
I think slow play is a better choice coz blind not going fast

[Sprayed]

Yes , it's gamble
but the risk still high
I prefer do that early on TURBO (most of times I do it here)
but when playing normal
I think slow play is a better choice coz blind not going fast

Turbo or non-turbo has nothing to do with it. Stack sizes are stack sizes and equity is equity. I was kidding about gamboling. Fucking 60% favorite on each of those hands. What you fail to understand is that you must literally push your edges. Take advantage of the smallest of edges in MTTs. BTW, 60% favorite is not a high risk.

[AK_suited]

Gambling is a problem in the early stages of a tourney because doubling or even tripling up does not guarentee the top 3 spots but if you lose you are guarenteed to be watching from the side or buying in to another tourney. If you are savey enough you can build a nice stack with little risk

[Extremophile]

Well when I am exhausted of getting bad beats, I decide to play very tight, and I become determined to win ( one of the advantages of getting bad beats). I think determination and patience are the key factors to run deep in tournaments. You really should want it.

Avoid multitabling as much as possible. Think a few more times before you put all your chips in; the opponents also have the right to have good cards. Do not panic when you have 10bb left. Even if you are not getting good cards ,you are getting a great value: if you keep your patience down to lets say 8bb left or even less, it is quite possible that you will get good cards, double up a few times in row, and get a nice stack. I have witnessed a lot of situations that justifies the famous saying "all I need is a chip and a chair".

[baudib]

Getting bad beats should have no impact on how you play your hands.

[Extremophile]

In the optimum case yes, but we are not robots. I know that means I don't always play my best and I am not always fully concentrated on my game. But there are several factors that affect your play, physical or psychological, and they are not related to poker. Bad beats help me focus more on the game and increase my desire to win.

[AlKo4g7iC]

quite funny that i agree with everything that ace king suited has said in this posting, so many people use their large stacks the wrong way and think once they have tripled or quadrupled u p that their in the money or in the final table which is not the fact. and just a kind of off topic but residing to ace kings posting i hate playing against people who think that they are the greatest poker players or when the y think they made a great play when really they played unorthodox for example they get a lucky AA against KK with the king hitting the flop after all the money i s in. a better example would be the player playing ace 6 off suit out of position with many people behind and catching full house against a nut straight.. my point here is the player in both occasions thinks he was in the right and almost brags about how he plays better than others at the table. i dont let players like this get me on tilt nor do i let anyone or anything get me on tilt.

[revolvingiris]

That's essential what I said "play smart" but I wanted to elaborate more I didn't want to leave it as "play smart" I wanted to give example of what I try to do when I get dealt bricks. And I was hoping to get more examples of what other people do when that b*tch variance hits them. When this happens you always need a lot of luck to come out on top but you need to survive a lil in order to get lucky.

Gambling is a problem in the early stages of a tourney because doubling or even tripling up does not guarentee the top 3 spots but if you lose you are guarenteed to be watching from the side or buying in to another tourney. If you are savey enough you can build a nice stack with little risk

To be honest, these two posts are so incorrect IDK where you got either of these ideas.

1st quote: Variance has nothing to do with "playing smart". It has everything to do with correct bankroll managment. You apply proper BRM so when you do get dealt bricks you can bust out of a MTT and still have a roll to play with...You cant win every MTT you enter. If you understood that then obv statements like this wouldnt come about. You look for the best spot to get your chips in and if you bust, oh well.

2nd quote: Gambling early on is the best thing ever in any MTT. You do not have an edge over the competition to miss out on any of the +EV plays you are presented with. The fact that your still in the "I need my opponents to fold to win" thought process shows you have a long way to go.

FWIW I play the 180 mans and there plenty of spots for you to get your money in +EV.

[revolvingiris]

Yes , it's gamble
but the risk still high
I prefer do that early on TURBO (most of times I do it here)
but when playing normal
I think slow play is a better choice coz blind not going fast

Turbo or non-turbo has nothing to do with it. Stack sizes are stack sizes and equity is equity. I was kidding about gamboling. Fucking 60% favorite on each of those hands. What you fail to understand is that you must literally push your edges. Take advantage of the smallest of edges in MTTs. BTW, 60% favorite is not a high risk.

x2