EV vs ICM

[revolvingiris]

With all the math running around about EV I am having trouble locating the correct method for MTTs.

EV = (equity)(total pot) - (amount to call)

or

x =(chips if Fold% - chips if Lose%) / (chips if Win%-chips if Lose%)

[JeffreyGB]

I think you are mixing up equations that are used for figuring different things...what exactly are you trying to calculate? Do you have a sample hand of what you're looking to fit to an equation?

[revolvingiris]

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...on-t86316.html

I posted this originally in the beginners circle and stacks gave me a great response.

However, I have been going over taipans stickys which are great but shows something completly different for figuring out +EV moves.

I am trying to figure out the best way for figuring out EV play in MTTs, specifically turbo 180 mans.

[JeffreyGB]

Ok, thanks for giving me a bit of the backstory.

The EV calculation is the same for either cash or tournaments. In cash it is telling you how much money you expect to win or lose on a play. In tournaments, it is telling you how many tournament chips you expect to win or lose. But in tournaments, that's not the whole story.

The other factors that come into play in tournaments are the fact that you can't rebuy (well, unless you can ), the element of survival, the balance that each additional chip is worth less than the one before it, and (as you near the money) ICM to calculate the monetary value of your chips as they relate to different possible outcomes. I don't know of a good equation to use to balance all of these factors mathematically, but looking for an equity edge as advised in the link you mentioned does sound reasonable.

Posting hands here at FTR and/or at GS is a good way to get opinions and develop a feel for how to balance those factors. 180-mans are multi-table enough that ICM doesn't really impact things until you're at least to the money bubble (and it could be argued that you can ignore it until the final table).

[revolvingiris]

Thanks for the response!

So an ok "balance" would be using the equation Stacks gave pre bubble and then post ITM begin using ICM?

[JeffreyGB]

That would still be ignoring many of the aspects I listed, as well as ignoring reads/history on other players. I don't think either equation should be the entire basis for your decision about a play.

That said, for the mathematical component of the decision, I think that approach is fair. Or you could even carry it forward and only consider ICM at the final table (as it will be hard to compute across multiple tables anyway).

[revolvingiris]

I didnt mean to sound like I was ignoring your other suggestions as I definitly am not. I'm at a place where I am looking around and going "where do I go from here". I feel as if I am at a MTT plateu and am searching for new things to learn.