TT vs. the 8.5XBB raise over a limper

[baudib]

I haven't posted a hand in a long time, mostly because I stopped playing MTTs for a while. I suppose this isn't that interesting a spot.

I hate to fold TT to donks but to me this type of raise is always a monster hand, "OMG once I raised 3xBB and this donk called with 76, flopped an OESD and rivered the straight to crack my aces!" Although I'm guessing it's more likely JJ-QQ that doesn't know how to play a flop.

This is clearly shove/fold and I'm guessing fold is easily the right play.

No Limit Holdem Tournament
$12 + $1 KO Sit & Go
8 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG (2580)
UTG+1 (7290)
MP1 (8040)
MP2 (6690)
CO (1975)
Hero (BTN) (2765)
SB (3140)
BB (4695)

Blinds: 30/60

Pre-flop: (90, 8 players) Hero is BTN
3 folds, MP2 calls 60, CO raises to 450, [i][color=#777777]Hero ???

[kstarm]

Reads are helpful here, loose donk vs tight winning player would make a difference to me-(though I don't know how many tight winning players would play like this). Lots of times at this buy-in you see these huge overbets being AK/AQ, though I wouldn't be overly suprised to see a monster, or really anything else (yesterday I saw 72o come up in a similar situation "for fun"). In a vaccum I would likely fold. If I had a read this guy was loose I would shove over.

[drmcboy]

hrrm. If you were the BB I'd like it a lot more.

one nice thing about the 8.5 bb is that if he does have a lower PP I can't believe he'll fold it.

[fjuanl]

In a $12 I'm insta-shoving this when your 30bbs effective. he's definetly raise/calling with tons of worse pairs and its unlikely to be QQ+ bc of the sizing

[baudib]

I put him on a range of 99+/AK, with 99 not being very likely.

[baudib]

In a $12 I'm insta-shoving this when your 30bbs effective. he's definetly raise/calling with tons of worse pairs and its unlikely to be QQ+ bc of the sizing

I dunno, I've seen people do all kinds of things, including open-shoving QQ+ with like 150 BBs.

[revolvingiris]

In a $12 I'm insta-shoving this when your 30bbs effective. he's definetly raise/calling with tons of worse pairs and its unlikely to be QQ+ bc of the sizing

I dunno, I've seen people do all kinds of things, including open-shoving QQ+ with like 150 BBs.

But villain didnt open shove, there is a difference. I cant imagine villain folding to your shove but thats kind of a good thing.

The only way I could see folding here is if CO is an aware player and thinks he can get a call from worse due to the blinds being so short. Either way its not a very good move on his part and just because someone does something "weird" doesnt mean they have a monster.

[baudib]

If he had open-shoved I would have snapped it off pretty quickly because I figure that to be AK more often than not.

I think it's a mistake to assume that bad players won't do stupid things like raising too big with AA. But I'm intrigued that you guys are mostly for shoving here.

FWIW, I was wrong and he had AK.

[DaGrinch]

Well I'll go ahead and play the role of village idiot (again). I like the fold here for a couple of reasons. First, you still have a monster stack to act behind you. Who knows, maybe he limped with a real hand (I know, dumb, but it happens). Second, its still early. You have a nice stack and is it worth risking 20% of your stack on some coin flip if he has 2 overcards?

TT is not a hand I like to fold, but I think this would be the right play for this situation.

[baudib]

We want the monster stack limper to call though.

[revolvingiris]

baudib Posted: Sun, 21 Jun 2009, 6:02pm
I think it's a mistake to assume that bad players won't do stupid things like raising too big with AA. But I'm intrigued that you guys are mostly for shoving here.

Of course bad players do stupid things, we love that! I think the reason a lot of people are saying push is because how often are you going to run into a bad player who plays QQ-AA like this? My guess is its a small % of the time and being villain will almost always stack off here. The % of your stack gained is much higher then the % of times this will be JJ+. These two arent directly related but I'd say its a pretty favorable gamboool.

DaGrinch Posted: Sun, 21 Jun 2009, 7:24pm
Second, its still early. You have a nice stack and is it worth risking 20% of your stack on some coin flip if he has 2 overcards?

Absolutly yes! Any edge you can find in an MTT you should take. Your goal is to be a massive black hole of death for other players chips. The bigger stack you have now the more you will have later when it comes to double ups, blind steals, calling short stacks, etc. ITM rarely, if ever, matters.

edit: Never cold call here, shove or fold