Transition Questions from 45 man to 180 man SNG's.

[Ryski]

Hi,

I've been playing 45 man SnG's for awhile and just started to mix in the 180 mans and was wondering what type of specific adjustments I need to make? For example, in the 45 mans if I have been playing well and not running too bad I can really start to build a stack during the 2 table short handed play and near the bubble. However, in the 180 man I seem to find myself always needing to double up when it gets down to 40-50 people range. Maybe this is normal but there are always people with HUGE stacks and I'm not sure how they got them. I took down my first 180 last night but I hit a ridiculous run of cards to get there.

Any link to any article on how to play these ( turbos btw ) would be helpful but I've probably read them. I realize this is a pretty general question but I'm looking for someone who plays both of these and has some advice to offer on where to make adjustments. I just feel that I'm missing a bunch of +EV spots in the 180 mans that I don't miss in the 45 mans. I hate limping into the FT with no stack so I'm probably missing spots to gambool it up along the way. Thanks.

[drmcboy]

there are always people with HUGE stacks and I'm not sure how they got them.

hit a ridiculous run of cards

welcome to donkaments

The biggest difference is that you 'win' ~1/3 as often. The more people that are in the more fish there will be which is why your edge should be better (if it was the same, you'd win 1/4 as much since there are 4x people). Your short & medium swings will also be much bigger.

I've played a lot more 45s than 180s specifically, but I would also say the stacks generally seemed shorter at the last couple tables in 180s, often people with 4M are the chip leaders (more stallers??). Again that will drive huge swings unless people play LoL tight.

[Ryski]

So are you saying you play them the exact same way and just expect to win with a lower frequency in the larger fields?

It seems like the more people in a tournament, the looser I play. Perhaps not in the very first two levels but in general I feel like I need to be playing in position vs fish or trying to isolate them when I can. In the 45 mans if I get a big stack early then great and if not then it's not that big of a deal b/c I know exactly where I can try to pick them up. In the 180's, most of these stay full ring and it is a lot harder for me to find shove spots so I feel the need to accumulate those chips earlier so I don't have to try to withstand 8-10 all-ins to get to the FT later. Maybe it is natural to always feel the need to double up in these.

In general, are you shoving more or less in the 180 mans?

I seem to shove less due to full ring and if I can standard raise being > 10bb or even close I prefer that than shoving. Being all in all of the time you will eventually lose a flip.

Where is the single most important area to really chip up in these?

Do you consider these more profitable or less profitable than the 45 mans?

[Im_new]

the 180s are too brutal for me, i think. I like the 45s much more.

As far as adjustments, take a few more risks during the middle stages.

[drmcboy]

you would shove less since more pots will be opened in front of you, and exactly the same other wise, ignoring payouts.

Do you consider these more profitable or less profitable than the 45 mans?

re read my post.

Where is the single most important area to really chip up in these?

So are you saying you play them the exact same way and just expect to win with a lower frequency in the larger fields?

I'm saying play your table, not an outline you put together before hand of when you need to double up and when you should start stealing.

If you want to have one strategy and never change it, 20 table single table SNGs and spend all your time memorizing proper push fold. I'm not criticizing you, that's an OK way to want to play. But it's a bad way to think about MTTs. probably the skill in MTTs is being able to adapt to constantly changing conditions.

I'm also saying it sounds like you've played about 15, it isn't going well (except you have a win already?!) and so you're ready to blow up your whole strategy world. MTTs are a long run thing. You probably think you understand words like swings but until you get a thousand MTTs + in you just don't.

[baudib]

Being all in all of the time you will eventually lose a flip.

You're seriously mistaken if you think you can profit at MTTs without risking flips. If you're going to win an MTT, you're absolutely going to have to come from behind and probably come from way behind at least a couple times, or steal/resteal lots of pots without very much.

If you are unwilling to put some chips in the middle in marginal spots, MTTs probably aren't for you.

[Ryski]

Well, first off from OPR ( Ryski525 ):

Game Type Profit ROI ABI ITM/Games ITM%

Multi Table 11-45 $751 20% $2.73 299/1385 22%
Multi Table 46-180 $97 85% $2.12 11/54 20%

A little background -- I started playing these back in March when Boku was doing his prop bet and have logged over 1k games so I'm very aware of the swings involved as opposed to the 1 table SNG's. I have a very good understanding of the 45 man SnG's but feel like I have less of an edge in the 180 mans although I have a very low sample size. Maybe it is because I 16 table these?

And baudib -- I push small edges all the time but I'm wondering if they just come earlier in the 180 mans as opposed to the 45 mans since you have a much longer way to go to the FT.

Whatever, I'll figure it out through experience I guess since drmcboy pointed out I can't have a roadmap for MTT's =p. I'm definitely used to push/fold poker from my earlier days.

Btw I find these easier to multi-table than 9 man sng's due to the fact that they stay full ring longer and there aren't as many short handed decisions on multiple tables.

Thanks.

[baudib]

I'm guessing there are more +EV spots earlier in MTTs but the bubble play is so ridiculously tight it's like stealing from children.

[revolvingiris]

It also depends on what type of 180s you play. I read you wanted info on the turbos?

They are nice as they take a little over an hour to finish but expect your varience to be pretty high compared to 45 mans. There really is no road map but I have noticed taking risks early to be better and expect to flip a lot in these. You just have to in order to stay ahead of the blinds. Any +ev play, push it!

[Luco]

it takes 4 times longer to get short handed.