Standard spot

[mxiu]

First raiser has been pretty active, so have I, the flatter just got moved here.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $50+$5 Tournament, 200/400 Blinds 50 Ante (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

SB (t19335)
BB (t4450)
UTG (t4013)
UTG+1 (t17722)
Hero (MP1) (t40071)
MP2 (t29108)
MP3 (t4746)
CO (t15320)
Button (t6435)

Hero's M: 38.16

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with J, J
1 fold, UTG+1 bets t979, Hero raises to t2800, 2 folds, CO calls t2800, 3 folds, UTG+1 calls t1821

Flop: (t9450) 9, 5, Q (3 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero?

[Im_new]

7000 to go? b/f?


urgh, I think i b/f too often

[revolvingiris]

I would bet 4599-ish. Bet/fold I dont think is terrible here but if you get flatted it might be tought to put villain on a FD. Unless he's into that sort of thing.

Edit: Check/folding is prob the better option.

[MystcMage]

A queen is the least scary overcard that could come. Since the biggest stack remaining is around 1.5x pot, I say shove it in and take your chances if someone has a better hand. I suspect at least one missed with AK.

[Im_new]

I would bet 4599-ish. Bet/fold I dont think is terrible here but if you get flatted it might be tought to put villain on a FD. Unless he's into that sort of thing.

Edit: Check/folding is prob the better option.

c/f rewards an aggressive CO player holding worse than us, probably a mid pair. And seeing another card (even when we spike a J) pretty much kills our action on the turn. But maybe checking down isn't horrible to hope for.

edit: it is too coordinated for c/f, i feel.

[drmcboy]

people who could call 3 bets are standard?

you can't fold to UTG-1 imo, if he managed to play a better pair like this or spike a Q good for him, he could have anything with the price he had coming back. I could see b/f if CO shoves.

[baudib]

I was originally thinking along the lines of revolvingiris and want to bet like $4,500.

Given how big the size is relative to effective stacks, I actually feel that shoving the flop is probably the way to go.

These guys have already put in like 20% of their stack. If you bet $4,500 into $9,450 with the intention of giving yourself room to fold, well, I don't like it. I'd call another $6,000 or so to see a pot of $20,000 on this board with JJ. I'm going to assume that these two are pretty bad, have a wide range here and may snap call with any piece of the board.

[drmcboy]

def cool with shrug/shove flop. it's also very awkward if we get called rather than shoved over with a HPS flop bet

[Im_new]

shove does look pretty.

[mcatdog]

I don't like shoving, I think you get a lot of hands that you crush to call a small flop bet and hopefully call a turn shove but those hands would fold if you open shoved the flop.

I think you need to just bet 4500 and see what happens but I probably wouldn't fold unless both of them go all-in over the top of you.

[baudib]

I agree we should fold if both shove, although even then we will be giving up the best hand sometimes.

Why don't we bet smaller then...like $3,000. If we agree that we're getting it all in vs. a flush draw, we can't give bad odds to draw and it widens their calling range on the flop, saves us some chips if we decide to fold.

[Im_new]

isn't 3000 giving villain correct odds on FD?

[mcatdog]

Don't worry about giving odds to flush draws when the stack-to-pot ratio is 1.5:1. No one is folding a flush draw to any size bet, nor should they (since they usually have an overcard or a straight draw too). If you bet 3K 90% of players will just shove their flush draws anyway.

Most people would get better at poker if they stopped being obsessed with flush draws all the time, they're almost always a small part of people's range.

[baudib]

Right. The flush draw is pretty much irrelevant -- so we widen his range of hands he'll call with, it looks weak so it widens the range he'll shove with (even though, IMO, it's hard to look weak betting into two in a 3-bet pot), and it costs us less in the few cases where both CO and UTG+1 both shove and we fold.

Should we talk about what kind of range of hands these two have here? There shouldn't be many Qs in their ranges nor 66 so we aren't beat here very often.

[Im_new]

very nice... thanks guys. I never knew that.

[mxiu]

fwiw: i bet 4800, CO shoved, utg folded, i folded. Figured the range was QQ+, Axs, KQs or something like that. I was leaning more towards QQ+ trapping tbh. not sure how flawed my thinking is

[baudib]

Figure a range that CO will shove with here. A lot of people MAY cold-call a three-bet with TT and just figure to get it in on an A-less/K-less flop. He could also have a random 9x or a flush draw.