How not to play DONs.....

[kevster]

Here's a pretty standard mistake for anyone interested in DONs.....

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $10.00+$0.80 Tournament, 100/200 Blinds 20 Ante (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Button (t888)
SB (t3600)
BB (t6072)
Hero (UTG) (t1850)
MP (t890)
CO (t1700)

Hero's M: 4.40

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A, Q
Hero bets t400, 4 folds, BB calls t200

Flop: (t1020) 6, 4, 8 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks

Turn: (t1020) Q (2 players)
BB bets t200, Hero calls t200

River: (t1420) 7 (2 players)
BB bets t600, Hero folds

Total pot: t1420

[Projectp]

Should you be folding that pre?

[tuuk2]

Should you be folding that pre?

Yes you should. With three stacks smaller than you and only needing one more person to bust out you should not be playing any cards against the the big stack at all, not even aces. I'd only play AA, KK, or QQ against the short stack in this situation. Let one of the giant stacks take out the small ones.

[Extremophile]

Here's a pretty standard mistake for anyone interested in DONs.....

Whatever the mistake is, I guess it is not standard to me:

One possibility is not to fold it pre.
Another possiblity is not to reraise on turn with TPTK.

I would have reraised on turn, maybe a shove, I think that is the mistake.

[drmcboy]

over betting the nut flush since in a DON opps calling range is Jxss +

fuck it, I call river
we've shown tons of weakness

[Micro2Macro]

I fold pre

[kevster]

Ok, I was waiting to see if Naka posted but he probably knows the answer anyway.

There's nothing wrong with folding pre - it's a decent line - but I think a lot of people see these spots and think folding is obvious. It would be easy enough for the shorties to get lucky and you're bang in trouble so, personally, I think it's a mistake not to raise a premium hand like this pre. We still need to build/maintain our stack to maximise our chances of cashing.

It's unfortunate that the big stack is sat to our right in this hand and he comes along. This might add weight to the argument for folding pre but meh.

The specific mistake I was referring too was calling the turn. As stated, I'm up against the big stack and whilst I've hit top pair the board isn't great. With the general chip situation at the table I'm not getting it all in with my (relatively) weak DON holding so it's absolutely clear that we should give this up.

Play any made hand fast at DONs unless you face resistance (especially against big stack/bubble). Then the opposite becomes true - look to check down or fold unless you have a genuinely strong hand (e.g. trips on a dry board).

[drmcboy]

is it really a premium hand if you have to play it like this? the BB is the big stack, it isn't like you should be surprised he comes along getting this price, esp if he at all understands his stack size.

[kevster]

is it really a premium hand if you have to play it like this? the BB is the big stack, it isn't like you should be surprised he comes along getting this price, esp if he at all understands his stack size.

Like I say, this could add to the 'fold pre' argument but I still think we can't afford to sit and wait. Most people at $10, regardless of stack size, are happily folding their blinds unless they have the goods. I accept that this may be wrong of them but it's certainly the case. I would expect this to change as the stakes increase.

I can't remember the BBs stats which would make the pre-flop spot more interesting. Will see if I can find them.....

[Nakamura]

Sorry, I havn't had a chance to look at the forum today. The turn line is by far the biggest mistake here. You can bet your bottom dollar that the betting isn't finished on turn and we can't call any decent sized bets on the river. You just have to let it go, however weak it may be.

To be honest I don't like the pre-flop line. It seems very exploitable ... this is a case in point. You are really hoping that everyone folds, otherwise there are very few flops you are going to be happy playing. Add to that you have to play the hand OOP a lot of the time, and this isn't going to be a happy hand to play.

[Micro2Macro]

IMO preflop is terrible. We are almost certainly getting called by the big blind unless he's very nitty because he's getting great pot odds and he knows (or should know) that he can apply pressure to us postflop and make us fold alot of good (but marginal) hands that beat his.

It seems like we just give up preflop too often to make this a good play, and even for the sake of raising to steal the blinds and antes - we're UTG and likely to be called or raised by someone. If all stacks we equal I think it would be a better situation to make a move (though I'm not sure about that).

If we get away from the hand with only 400 chips lost, next hand the big blind hits us, so after the blinds have passed we're down to 1805-400-200-100 = 1105, and I even ignored the antes. So is it really worth the risk since we can count of the big blind calling us more than we'd like and get into akward spots postflop. Like what happens if we flop mid pair? What if we flop air? (which will happen most of the time). I think we need to wait to get in a better position to steal.

Given the fact that there are TWO significanty shorter stacks than us at the table - and the biggest stack at the table is in the best position to call us, we should pitch this and conserve chips to make a move next rotation.

Maybe this can initiate further discussion on preflop, although I understand that you wanted to demonstrate the big mistake of this hand as the turn call so hopefully my reply doesn't count as hijacking your thread

[kevster]

Sorry, I havn't had a chance to look at the forum today. The turn line is by far the biggest mistake here. You can bet your bottom dollar that the betting isn't finished on turn and we can't call any decent sized bets on the river. You just have to let it go, however weak it may be.

Looks like we have some agreement then (not just Naka obv).

I think pre-flop is debatable, this is just how play them. I'm not saying I'm definitely right but I don't think it's a clear cut fold either. Just a few minutes ago, I saw an opp to my right play like a maniac and build a huuuuge stack early only to let just about everything go later on (including my std strong Ace UTG raises).

Anyway, I don't want to bang on about this (unless others do). I suspect this may be something that shifts based on stake. I've been running crazy hot lately and am still unsure whether to increase tables or move up.

[Micro2Macro]

Yeah stake may have something to do with it. At the $5's not many poeple are paying attention to how tight you are so if you're counting on just picking up the blinds good luck, if someone has a hand they want to play they will play it. I haven't gotten into the $10's yet though.

Since preflop seems like a close decision, it will probably be heavily based on gameflow and what your opponents are thinking you hold.

[Extremophile]

How can you be so sure? You are folding TPTK! What if he had QJ,KQ,Q10, etc..or he flopped just a little pair and puts you on AK. I do understand folding pre but I really don't understand the fold on turn. You are claiming you need raise with these hands but then what kind of a board are you hoping for?

[kevster]

I do understand folding pre but I really don't understand the fold on turn

Then maybe you don't understand DONs.

Are you calling river? No? Then calling the turn is burning 1/7th of the remaining small-ish stack at a delicate stage of the tourney. Huge mistake.

[Nakamura]

How can you be so sure? You are folding TPTK! What if he had QJ,KQ,Q10, etc..or he flopped just a little pair and puts you on AK. I do understand folding pre but I really don't understand the fold on turn. You are claiming you need raise with these hands but then what kind of a board are you hoping for?

Because of the flat payout structure, even though you think you are ahead here, you can not stack off. Work out the tournament equities before and after stacking off and you'd realise being something like 80% ahead probably isn't enough. As Kevster says burning off 1/7 of your stack obv isn't good either when you have no idea how much the next street is going to cost you.

Kevster, I'm interested in your min-raise strategy. Personally I don't use it myself, mostly because I multi-table too much and it's difficult to make these decisions. In this case I think the min-raise is wrong, but I can see many situations where it's very +EV. Do you have requirements for a min-raise versus a push? Do you balance your range with occassional good hands? What level do you start min-raising at?

Just to point out to folks who may be wondering if Kevster is insane, I play alot of these and most of the time you see everyone fold to min-raises. Occassionally a ballsy player will come along and raise over the top (aka me ) and force you to fold, but you've already collected a lot of pots (hopefully), which are full of antes, and you haven't risked your entire stack to do so.

[kevster]

Kevster, I'm interested in your min-raise strategy. Personally I don't use it myself, mostly because I multi-table too much and it's difficult to make these decisions. In this case I think the min-raise is wrong, but I can see many situations where it's very +EV. Do you have requirements for a min-raise versus a push? Do you balance your range with occassional good hands? What level do you start min-raising at?

Good question and this is something I should probably give more thought to and will cover when I finish the strategy doc.

Briefly though, I follow a pretty strict raising policy based on the blinds as with normal SNGs. Once we're at 75/150 with the antes, I find 2 X the BB works fine a hell of a lot more than it doesn't. I do vary this but only in specific spots (e.g. trapping a loony or getting max value if a raise puts my M in real danger).

M, in my opinion, can be stretched in DONs beyond the usual "5 or less equals shove" rule but the other stack sizes become crucial in push decisions so it's a pretty fluid situation and hard to apply a specific rule. So, to kind of summarise this hand, I can make a min-raise which I know to work in most mid-to-late DON spots (esp. bubble) and my M is still healthy enough to jam a hand in the near future if I end up having to let this go.

Sorry, that wasn't very brief.

Just to point out to folks who may be wondering if Kevster is insane

I don't mind people questioning this

I have pretty good results at these but that doesn't mean that I'm not missing out on value in certain hands/situations. Am happy to discuss / dissect / improve.

[Extremophile]

I am not questioning how good of a player someone is, I mean I can't and, I am just discussing the hand and trying to understand the things.

So, we are folding the turn (instead of shoving) because the board is dirty, there are straight and flush possibilities and, there are 3 people who are severely short stacked. The chips we have right now are much more valuable than the future ones and we don't want to stack off. So, our primary purpose is to cash under these conditions.

I was a little confused about where our hand stands at on the turn. Lets say we already cashed and only the 2 big stacks left. Then, we are not folding turn right?

[Projectp]

What happens when the 6th place finishes, game just ends?

[Nakamura]

What happens when the 6th place finishes, game just ends?

Yes, lame isn't it?

Play stops and the prize pool gets evenly shared. 1st to 5th double up. There is no advantage to gathering chips (over than survival) and therefore you should be ver adverse to gambling on the bubble (or at most points during the DON).

[Nakamura]

So, we are folding the turn (instead of shoving) because the board is dirty, there are straight and flush possibilities and, there are 3 people who are severely short stacked.

Even if the Qh comes out I'm done putting chips in. You are gambling that no one will call you PF, when someone does call you have to check if down or pretty much fold unless you have the nuts or close to it. A brief explanation of why you have to fold can be found here.

[Extremophile]

ahhh I thought DON is an abbreviation of donkaments. hehe. OK it is doube or nothing. now everyting makes more sense.

[Rage2100]

I agree with some of the other replies, the biggest mistake is calling the turn.

I think this min-raise strategy can work at the $10 buy-ins, against certain players, as most of the time, players will just fold. In this case though, having the big stack in the BB, I think I'd fold pre-flop.

Also, this strategy can easily be exploited, as Nakamura said. A good player with a reasonable stack size, can just push over your raise, and force you to fold.

I've used this strategy myself, so I know it works in certain situations. I wouldn't recommend anyone try this at a $1 buy-in though.

[Roller]

Why not Raise on the Turn?

Whatever works for you.

[kevster]

So, we are folding the turn (instead of shoving) because the board is dirty, there are straight and flush possibilities and, there are 3 people who are severely short stacked.

Even if the Qh comes out I'm done putting chips in.....

This is spot on in 99% of these kind of bubble spots (including this one) but this could change dependant on stack size / insanity of opp.

[Nakamura]

Kevster, if we are check-folding TPTK kicker when called PF, why do you have raising standards? Position is surely more important (when min-raising or pushing) than the cards?

Thought - Cards are actually more important when you push, since occassionally you're going to showdown and have to win. They don't seem very important if you are min-raising.