Call push here?

[Raoni_Poker]

Hi all,

I just downloaded the trial version of SnG Wiz and I'm reviewing some of my hands. This spot is interesting, so...I wonder if you would call here.

Surprisingly, villain does not need a wide shoving range to make this a call. Apparently, even if he is shoving 6% it is still a call. Am I missing something? I'm still learning how to use the software, so...it can be something wrong with it.

No-Limit Hold'em, $300.00 BB (5 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

SB ($4160)
Hero (BB) ($1870)
UTG ($3100)
MP ($600)
Button ($5270)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 2, 3
1 fold, MP bets $600 (All-In) ... Hero???

Total pot: $750

[BigTVeno]

Fold its a junk hand

[Projectp]

I dont have SNGwiz but its a call because of the stack sizes, and its 300 for you to call ,2.5 to 1, and potentially knock out villain.

[taipan168]

Call. You're getting better than 2.5 to 1 pot odds - you're getting 3:1 and you're rarely worse than 2:1 dog against whatever opp has.

[pool123]

if you getting 3to1 on the money of course you call there i would think at least that what i would do i have to learn more about sitngo wiz i play alot of 18man sitngo maybe it good for my game

[Raoni_Poker]

I know you have pot odds to call with anything here. However, despite what the math says, I dont think we can afford to lose more 300 chips here with that hand (we still have to put the SB on the next hand). Lets face it, even if his range is huge, we're winning 30% of the time and we have a bit less than 25% pot odds (the total pot information is wrong, dont ask me why).

So...If I was answering a quiz...thats definitely a call here.
Would I call it in a real game? Dont think so.

[taipan168]

So...If I was answering a quiz...thats definitely a call here.
Would I call it in a real game? Dont think so.

If there's a difference between the two answers, you have a leak...

[villagenut]

Taipan,
Your comment about different answers made me wonder about SNGwiz vs ICM. Do these two always agree?

I would be interested to see what ICM says about this situation. I'm not good at running the ICM numbers so would someone please run these and let us know how it comes out.

[Raoni_Poker]

So...If I was answering a quiz...thats definitely a call here.
Would I call it in a real game? Dont think so.

If there's a difference between the two answers, you have a leak...

This is probabaly a leak. When I'm an underdog and the pot is offering good odds, I tend to think in absolute terms if this decision can do damage in my stack. The decision is not that simple...we're losing 70% of the time with the worst hand possible for an all in confrontation.

When we lose (around 70%), we allow the shortstack to build his stack up to 1350 and we're down to 1420 after puting the SB.

I'm not saying that is wrong to call it...the call is mathematically rigth. But in extreme situations like this, I wonder if we would profit more thinking more conservately...

[Raoni_Poker]

Taipan,
Your comment about different answers made me wonder about SNGwiz vs ICM. Do these two always agree?

I would be interested to see what ICM says about this situation. I'm not good at running the ICM numbers so would someone please run these and let us know how it comes out.

ICM recommends to call with ATC. Of course, 32o is at the bottom of this range.

[Fielmann]

the call is mathematically rigth. But in extreme situations like this, I wonder if we would profit more thinking more conservately...

If the call is mathematically correct, then how can it "actually" be incorrect? The only way this could be possible is if we had some information which the mathematical model doesn't take into account. Three things come to mind.
1. The time left for the blinds to increase. Since you didn't point that out, this is probably not a factor here.
2. The fact that we'll pay the SB next hand. I would like to see some math behind this reasoning. I find it hard to believe that the time when (not whether!) we have to pay 150, while we still have almost 10 times that much left, could have that much impact. Also note that the fact that time left for the next SB is minimal means that the time left for the next BB is maximal.
3. The fact that we are better than our opponents. As a much better player, we can sometimes pass a marginally +EV situation, because there will probably come a better spot. Whether this is the case here depends on how marginal the call is exactly. I haven't run the analysis myself, but I have a feeling that it's not marginal enough to fold it. Remember that part of the reason why you can consider yourself a better player than your opponents is your ability to spot this profitable and counter-intuitive call.

ICM recommends to call with ATC. Of course, 32o is at the bottom of this range.

32o is at the bottom of ANY preflop calling range that includes it. This doesn't mean that calling with it is always marginal. Imagine that instead 3:1 odds you were getting 100:1 pot odds. The statement "ICM recommends to call with ATC. Of course, 32o is at the bottom of this range." would still be true, but the call would be very profitable.

[Jack Sawyer]

mathematically, its a fist pump call.

the problem is, that if villain is soooo fucking tight that he managed to get this low in chips, he's probably at the very top of his range because he finally picked up TT+ in SB and now pushes 2BB.


even so, do not hesitate to call here.

[Raoni_Poker]

Thanks for the replies...
Since I'm still getting used to SnG Wiz, some questions can be hard to assimilate. If opponent has 60% range, we're profiting 140 chips. If he is shoving 30% this number does not drop considerably (its a profit of 113 chips). Therefore, this play is not as marginal as i thought

What I need to do now is to make a chart of shoving ranges (10%, 20%, 30%...) and get used to it.

I've noticed that SnG wiz adopts a different criterion to define this ranges in comparison to PokerStove. I think the ranges in SnG Wiz are way more realistic, so...I'll write it down before it expires.