Midpairs in SB/BB with a 3bet in front of you

[mixchange]

Situation:

You are in the blinds with a mid pocket pair 88-JJ
Button, who is 3betting around 5% in general but 7% OTB
When button 3bets, what do you do with these hands?

if its CO raise, button 3bet i feel like we can 4bet JJ and 1010, and flatting OOP seems really hard and not something I'd want to do.
if it's UTG raise, button 3bet I feel like its an even more annoying spot.



Ideas/discussion plz. I know it can depend a lot on feel, recent table activity, and the players, etc. so overall advice or hand examples would be awesome.

[noble007]

I definitely wouldn't call with 88-TT because of the sandwich effect and I think it's too thin to 4Bet for value.

I also just had a look at the numbers and you would be losing money long term 4B getting it in with JJ vs. a 6% 3B range 7% is the 'break-even' but that's assuming you already put a 3/4bb raise and you still have to worry about CO showing up with a hand.

The only spot I could see myself playing is if OTB raised SB 3B with your 7% stats then I might call with TT & JJ in the BB as I would expect the button to fold alot of his wide range and I could play a pot in position vs. SB

In the second example where UTG raises and button 3Bets I think you should definitely fold 88-JJ.

Edit: I may be pretty weak tight in these spots though, interested what other people do.

[dejection08]

I think that its almost an auto fold. Assuming we are about 100 bb deep. With the button only 3b 5% of the time his range is narrowed even more.

I think the only time we would consider 4betting or calling is because we suspect that button is making a move and we are deep enough to play for a set value if we do get called.

just fold, you're oop and even if you hit a set you won't make moneys that often

not to mention when CO has like QQ+,AK and shoves over your flat
now if it's BU open, SB 3b... that is more interesting?

[meeloche]

All are trivial folds unless you have a dynamic where you can cold 4 bet 1010 and JJ and get it in in decent shape.

[mixchange]

I guess I just felt nitty folding JJ/1010 with a loose 3better OTB.

I've been folding, but felt very dirty.

[IowaSkinsFan]

I'm not sure that 4betting all these isnt slightly better than folding. I'd have to do the math but its definitely close. Nonetheless, I'd probably call with all the hands though im such a six max fish.

[Dragon Slayer]

Im pretty nitty I don't think Id fold 88-JJ. I just now started folding like22-66 in SB. Realizing its hard to pay off etc even when you do hit. Wouldn't 4 betting these hands more or less turn our hand into a bluff? I mean we aren't stacking off here are we?

[mixchange]

Dragon,

if we cold 4bet any of the pairs, it is with the intention of getting it in. That's why you'd probably only cold 4bet at least 1010.

I wrote this thread trying to figure out what to do, but I think it just comes down to another spot where position is king. That's why villain 3betting on the button wide is so profitable, it makes ppl behind have to either

1) fold
2) play a 3bet pot oop with a holding that will be tough to discern where we're at
3) 4bet and likely be dominated by his calling range, but pick up the pot a ton.


I'll have to do some calc's to figure this one out - basically his 5bet shove range (if he flats a 4b i shove any flop). Most people's is AK, QQ, KK. Some ppl throw away AK to a cold 4bet, some ppl put you on AK exactly since vs. wide 3bettor you probably don't want to cold 4bet AA, especially with another player to act


This is why pounding loose EP openers OTB (or even CO) with a wide range is super profitable. Obviously the loose openers have to fold a lot, but its really tough for the blinds to disguise their hand (flatting and 4betting are all really strong)

[gabe]

their 3b% needs to be higher