$2.20 180 man: Line check

[Evilpopcorn]

So firstly opening KTo here ok ?

I cbet here cos its extremely draw heavy and i should get called by worse a lot. I do think tho bet/folding here would be bad. So maybe against aggro oppoent checking is fine and against passive opponent cbet is good ?

Turn is the best cards i could hope for. I also now realise i should have bet a little more on the flop to leave a PSB left behind. Jam here good ?

Poker Stars $2.00+$0.20 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t125/t250 Blinds + t25 - 8 players


Hero (BTN): t6248 M = 10.87
SB: t7315 M = 12.72
BB: t5680 M = 9.88
UTG: t6675 M = 11.61
UTG+1: t2385 M = 4.15
MP1: t760 M = 1.32
MP2: t4570 M = 7.95
CO: t5000 M = 8.70

Pre Flop: (t575) Hero is BTN with T K
5 folds, Hero raises to t750, 1 fold, BB calls t500

Flop: (t1825) 3 Q T (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets t1000, BB calls t1000

Turn: (t3825) 5 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets t4473 all in

[Extremophile]

The villian calls your relatively strong bet on the flop. I would understand your all in with top pair but you are probably beat here. I would check the turn and call the river.

[drmcboy]

looks fine

[fjuanl]

You'll valuetown yourself sometimes but given its a $2, you'll get snapped off by a ton of worse tens as well as draws. I like it

[revolvingiris]

Did I miss something with this hand? Your for sure folding out worse hands shoving or are most likely getting called by what beats OP. Sure, some % of the time villain will show up with worse but its not that often.

I was never able to understand why MTT players just assume villains are completely clueless at the micro level. Most micro level players know what beats what and I have a feeling OP would let us know if villain was over the top spew.

PF action is standard but I would actually check this flop. However, I am one of the players here who don't c-bet 100% of the time. OP has showdown value and this line seems to kill that. This line also seems to kill value OP would get from ALL hands.

[drmcboy]

have you put villain on a range?

what % of the time do you think we get to showdown by checking?

is the plan to call turn and river barrels? How often do you think we're good there?

Are you arguing that BB c/c with Qx is standard or a good play? You say I'm calling them clueless but that seems like a pretty clueless play to me.

[revolvingiris]

No I'm saying hero gets value from all of villains range when we just check call down. Why build a pot with a weak hand when we basically have to fold if villain shows any strength. We have showdown value so I would take a line that could get me there.

[bigspenda73]

i hate to admit that one time or another I played a ton of these things

I can say with confidence that this is fine

[revolvingiris]

Sure its fine, I never said it was a terrible play. I am just discussing what would be the most optimal. So many factors go into what the "correct" play is. Most of the time villain will just fold and hero will take it down. I'm just trying to offer alternatives that net hero more chips.

To me this seems like the same thing Gabe posted awhile ago about KK (or QQ) with an A flopping.

What if hero had T9 instead of KT?

[fjuanl]

BB's range could be massive and people don't fold draws at microstakes. So you get value from any flush draw, open-ended straight draw and T6-JT. Maybe even stuff like AJ/AK. OP doesn't necessarily look strong when he puts villain in on the turn bc the fish will just assume he's semibluffing or has AK

[drmcboy]

No I'm saying hero gets value from all of villains range when we just check call down.

Describe how we get 'value' from a draw by checking it down.

He checked twice, the idea he would have been barreling away if we check the flop doesn't make sense.

[revolvingiris]

But villain isn't calling with draws 100% of the time either. Really only FD, more often than not with OESD, and not a ton with rest. So yeah we get calls from those but how often will BB have KJ or J9 in this scenario? J9 almost never so KJ is really the only OESD hero should include in range and even then like 50% of the time. I would say AK more likely that J9. So for a range we have like KJ(50%), AK(20%? prob less), Qx, Tx, 33, and FD (only analyzing flop play).

What hands are villain calling with on the turn? Qx, set, and sometimes a T? Most of the time it will be draws or a Q thats calling this turn. Where as if we check call, we give villain the opportunity to bluff away.

TBH I dont really mind the flop bet as much, its the turn action that I'm more or less wondering about.

[drmcboy]

we're IP, he already checked the turn. which is why I don't understand why you think he'll bluff.

Also don't forget he may not bluff gut shots or bottom pair (again we have no reason to think he will). Those are great hands to CR but terrible hands to give a free card to. You're attaching no value to winning the current pot and over thinking future bets.

[revolvingiris]

You're attaching no value to winning the current pot and over thinking future bets.

Prob and I don't think as played is terrible either. I just think we miss value from worse and get called by better a lot on turn.

[drmcboy]

can you specifically discuss what bet sizing you want and what hands that takes advantage of?

[fjuanl]

revolving did you see that BB only has a potsized bet left on the turn? The turn isn't an overbet

[revolvingiris]

Im saying I check turn to induce bets from weaker Txs, underpairs or to get down cheap if villain has Q or set. I just don't see what T calls here other than AT, KT, and some times QT,JT,T9. I also think an underpair folds to a ship...It looks like we are trying to fold out a better hand. If we put villain on a FD then I prob bet something that gives him bad implied (maybe 1/2-2/3rd PSB).

Yes the current pot has value but we keep that same value when we check also. We lose value when we fold out worse.

[drmcboy]

you don't get that value. If he's folding 3x on the turn, for example, I don't see why he would then call with it on the river. but you do give him a free chance to improve. You're also giving all the draws free cards.

I don't understand what you said here

If we put villain on a FD

Do you or don't you? It would be great if we could bet when he had a draw and check if he had nothing but I assume that is not what you are suggesting.

you have to think he is drawing here. the big problem with a check is you don't know what he is drawing at, so after you check you're committing to calling the river also. So you're passing on a chance to win 3825 now for the chance to win more later, or lose the whole pot. But opp's hand has all the energy. When he misses his draw he isn't going to pay you off. Sure he could bluff, but again he's checked twice already, it would be pretty surprising for him to decide to bluff the river. So usually we win the same when he bricks, but lose more when he hits. If he was calling the turn with a draw, it's almost certainly a bad call and so we 'win' there whatever happens.

We are never getting to showdown cheap if he has a set, I don't know why you keep saying that. I think he has a Q almost never but if he does I doubt he'll check the river.

[revolvingiris]

I agree we arent ever getting to the river cheap if villain has set. But checking will combat that part.

Well its kind of hard to discuss this hand because villain has a Q x amount of times, T x amount of times, air x amount of times, FD x amount of times, and SD x amount of times. Obv you know that but villain can only hold one of those this time (discluding Q w/FD etc)

I think villain could have any of the above being I wasnt playing. But I think a large % of time hero gets called on turn it is with a Q. Some times villain will call with FD and sometimes with a T. But I think largely its with a Q.

I also dont think we can automatically assume villain has a FD just because he called the flop. Reason being that some micro players understand odds. OP still hasent said villain is super spew so I dont know why we just assume that.

The turn seems like a classic case of worse folds/better calls. If we cant assume villain will ever take a stab then we cant assume they would call with worse either.

[fjuanl]

Well its kind of hard to discuss this hand because villain has a Q x amount of times, T x amount of times, air x amount of times, FD x amount of times, and SD x amount of times. Obv you know that but villain can only hold one of those this time (discluding Q w/FD etc)

I think you know how to find x. Hint: hand combinations

I think villain could have any of the above being I wasnt playing. But I think a large % of time hero gets called on turn it is with a Q. Some times villain will call with FD and sometimes with a T. But I think largely its with a Q.

IMO your doing what I still do too much...using your hand range as an assumption for what randoms will do. Obviously if you are villain in this hand, valuebetting KT is pretty bad because your smart enough to fold draws and worse Tx

I also dont think we can automatically assume villain has a FD just because he called the flop. Reason being that some micro players understand odds. OP still hasent said villain is super spew so I dont know why we just assume that.

With limited info your best guess is to assume every random in a $2 MTT is an awful station whose range for calling a BTN raise in the BB is massive (im thinking nearly any 2 suited cards)

The turn seems like a classic case of worse folds/better calls. If we cant assume villain will ever take a stab then we cant assume they would call with worse either.

The last sentence is definitely not true. Its exactly why passive stations are so easy to play against

If OP checks turn, basically half the deck is going to complete some draw so hand reading will be difficult

[drmcboy]

The turn seems like a classic case of worse folds/better calls.

I don't agree, but even if this is true it doesn't mean betting is bad. We get 100% of the pot when he folds and less than that when the hand continues.

Again here you're ignoring the current pot but you don't seem willing to consider that. At some point you need to ask yourself why.

I also dont think we can automatically assume villain has a FD just because he called the flop. Reason being that some micro players understand odds. OP still hasent said villain is super spew so I dont know why we just assume that.

Stop saying I just assume he has X. At no point in this thread have I said he has X. My main point is that we have no idea what he has, and when that is true you're better off being aggressive than check guessing, or check auto paying off. For example, what if he has a straight draw and is planning on bluffing hearts?

That said, calling a bet here with a flush draw in no way means he is a bad player. I'm folding a flush draw 0% of the time on the flop.

I agree we arent ever getting to the river cheap if villain has set. But checking will combat that part.

we have a PSB left, it's going in if he has a set, we generally save nothing, maybe he bets half the pot instead.

IMO your doing what I still do too much...using your hand range as an assumption for what randoms will do. Obviously if you are villain in this hand, valuebetting KT is pretty bad because your smart enough to fold draws and worse Tx

I don't get this either. Are you saying as the BB you have a Q or better here sometimes?

[revolvingiris]

Stop saying I just assume he has X. At no point in this thread have I said he has X.

you have to think he is drawing here.

To me, this means you think he has X.

I agree with a ton of what both of you guys are saying. But hero doesn't have a read that villain is a passive station. The HH above is just a situation I don't tend to put myself in a ton. We have a mediocre hand against someone who is calling OOP. Minus reads I don't see where we can just shove our tourney life just because of a wet-ish board.

For the record, I do put value on the current pot as its 50% of heros starting stack. But just because hero shoves turn it doesn't mean we automatically win it.

[drmcboy]

When I say drawing, I mean:

he doesn't have nothing

&

we likely have the best hand

he could have FD, SD, over plus gutter, bottom pair, etc. If he shows me a better hand than Tx here then he's a super brave guy and I'm going to draw out on him a ton when he takes this line and I don't have a pair.


My general point is that he's going to play the river a lot better than we are - we'll either call when we are beat too often or fold the best hand sometimes.

What line are you taking? After you check, are you calling any river?

[drmcboy]

Also can you just confirm this - when you see someone call from the BB then c/c a wet flop and check the turn with a PSB behind, your default read is that they have TP+? We can just stop discussing the hand if that's true, because I'm guessing I can't talk you out of it and I'm sure you can't talk me into it.

[revolvingiris]

No I don't default TP+ here and I could easily see you drawing out on villain a ton. Its not bravery, its playing scared. Which happens to be like the number 1 problem every micro stakes player has.

You have to also remember that some % of the time villain will c/r ship their draw. Its also probably a larger % being villain is so short stacked.

Idk if I would call every river or not its kind of player dependent. If I had any hint that villain was even a little bit aggro I would check call the world.

[drmcboy]

I remember all those things. You just keep arguing that I'm wrong without presenting any other line and saying you would use reads we don't have. I'm down with the thread but I hope you keep thinking about how hard this river is to play and how that should impact what we do on the turn.

[revolvingiris]

Ok? I thought it was a good discussion but apparently I was just wasting your time.