400NL: Teh perilz of deeeeep tables

[ESS123]

Villain has competent PF stats but I'm convinced he might be retarded... Runs something like 25/20.

Full Tilt Poker $2/$4 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players


SB: $791.50
BB: $397.70
UTG: $814.00
MP: $391.50
CO: $1114.30
Hero (BTN): $1303.30

Pre Flop: ($6.00) Hero is BTN with K A
2 folds, CO raises to $12, Hero raises to $42, 2 folds, CO calls $30

Flop: ($90.00) 6 4 A (2 players)
CO checks, Hero bets $52, CO raises to $220, [color=red]Hero

[meeloche]

That's a big freaking raise. I'd start by calling and playing a turn.

[ATOTHEC101]

call and see a turn...

Thinking my answer through, I basically want to do everything to prevent myself from being stacked but the only hand I can have that is happy about this flop to play for stacks is :Ah::Ac: and I guess sometimes 7s5s

My play deep is terrible though and I'm really unhappy about how I get stacked by the villain's value range with meh hands

[Alexos]

why do you think hes a retarded?

why do you think hes bluffing?

[griffey24]

Is he the type that would c/r AQ for value in this spot, thinking it looks FoS?

I think we run into another AK here pretty often.

Yah I'll call and see a turn.

[Da GOAT]

calling pre is fien too IP, id prob do it even just how deep we are

[ESS123]

I think he's retarded from some earlier experience of bad/light stack offs. Don't feel like finding HH's but he's definitely not a good/great player at this limit. I think flatting pre is horrible because of reverse implied odds.

[ATOTHEC101]

I think he's retarded from some earlier experience of bad/light stack offs. Don't feel like finding HH's but he's definitely not a good/great player at this limit. I think flatting pre is horrible because of reverse implied odds.

I don't think you've used reverse implied odds in the right context here. Also post the turn please.

[ESS123]

I think he's retarded from some earlier experience of bad/light stack offs. Don't feel like finding HH's but he's definitely not a good/great player at this limit. I think flatting pre is horrible because of reverse implied odds.

I don't think you've used reverse implied odds in the right context here. Also post the turn please.

sure I have. Vs. a large portion of his range that I am allowing to see the flop for 3.5bb, I am going to stand to lose a lot bigger of a pot than I can possibly win. All pairs are going to win big-ish pots when I have TPTK and they have sets, whereas when I hit TPTK I will win a relatively small pot since they won't float OOP. They could maybe peel one street with an overcard or two, but I'm not winning a significant pot vs. a pocket pair. I just think flatting is epicly horrible.

Why would I flat when we're deep enough that I can easily 3bet/call a 4bet and play in position?

[Marshall28]

3betting is definitely >>>>> flatting. I agree w/ OP that it's a reverse implied odds situation when 300bb deep.

Obv there's no other play but to flat this raise and play a turn card. Folding would be terrible and raising would induce a 3bet from what worse hand? You have position, you'll know by the river if you're good or not.

[mixchange]

3betting is definitely >>>>> flatting. I agree w/ OP that it's a reverse implied odds situation when 300bb deep.

Obv there's no other play but to flat this raise and play a turn card. Folding would be terrible and raising would induce a 3bet from what worse hand? You have position, you'll know by the river if you're good or not.

I agree, but I'd be curious about why you prefer 3betting here. I hate 3betting AK 300BB deep, but maybe I just don't know how to play AK deep! What is your general plan? Are you comfortable getting all in, and if so under roughly what conditions?

If I flat AK pre, it's not normal to stack off for 100BB (id need a specific spot/history etc.), much less 300BB so I am really confused about how flatting is RIO. If anything, id think 3betting can be RIO as he'll flat 100% of his pairs and fold to our cbets but raise when he spikes a set. and we'll rarely get it in for 300bb ahead with one pair

[griffey24]

3betting is definitely >>>>> flatting. I agree w/ OP that it's a reverse implied odds situation when 300bb deep.

Obv there's no other play but to flat this raise and play a turn card. Folding would be terrible and raising would induce a 3bet from what worse hand? You have position, you'll know by the river if you're good or not.

I agree, but I'd be curious about why you prefer 3betting here. I hate 3betting AK 300BB deep, but maybe I just don't know how to play AK deep! What is your general plan? Are you comfortable getting all in, and if so under roughly what conditions?

Stacks are soooo deep than villain is gonna call a TON of hands to the 3bet OOP (all pairs, tons of SC's etc) and probably play fit or fold on most flops.

[ESS123]

3betting is definitely >>>>> flatting. I agree w/ OP that it's a reverse implied odds situation when 300bb deep.

Obv there's no other play but to flat this raise and play a turn card. Folding would be terrible and raising would induce a 3bet from what worse hand? You have position, you'll know by the river if you're good or not.

I agree, but I'd be curious about why you prefer 3betting here. I hate 3betting AK 300BB deep, but maybe I just don't know how to play AK deep! What is your general plan? Are you comfortable getting all in, and if so under roughly what conditions?

Stacks are soooo deep than villain is gonna call a TON of hands to the 3bet OOP (all pairs, tons of SC's etc) and probably play fit or fold on most flops.

Yes this. And add in the fact that 300bb deep I can COMFORTABLY call a 4bet and play a big pot IP (although without the initiative.) But he will also probably 4bet too small (just because people are so inexperienced playing this deep) so there's some added EV there imo.

[ATOTHEC101]

Fyi I'm 100 percent in the 3 bet pre camp, hate flatting.

[mixchange]

3betting is definitely >>>>> flatting. I agree w/ OP that it's a reverse implied odds situation when 300bb deep.

Obv there's no other play but to flat this raise and play a turn card. Folding would be terrible and raising would induce a 3bet from what worse hand? You have position, you'll know by the river if you're good or not.

I agree, but I'd be curious about why you prefer 3betting here. I hate 3betting AK 300BB deep, but maybe I just don't know how to play AK deep! What is your general plan? Are you comfortable getting all in, and if so under roughly what conditions?

Stacks are soooo deep than villain is gonna call a TON of hands to the 3bet OOP (all pairs, tons of SC's etc) and probably play fit or fold on most flops.

Right, I get that he is calling wide to stack us, but that would make me want to 3bet a junkier hand and play to win all those small pots with cbets or on turn barrells. I'd try to avoid the big pot, cuz that's when he has it! We'll usually be at best flipping with a draw,right? I mean he's never stacking off with AQ or worse for 300bb unless he's a huge fish

I guess I don't envision a lot of scenarios where villain wants to get it in and we're favored with one pair.

[meeloche]

Fyi I'm 100 percent in the 3 bet pre camp, hate flatting.

me 2 fwiw

[griffey24]

I guess I don't envision a lot of scenarios where villain wants to get it in and we're favored with one pair.

So you're flatting AA/KK preflop too then, when we're this deep?

[Alexos]

id 3bet 80% of the time, but no preflop is boring so who cares.

If he's solid, this is such a snap fold w/out crazy history or something. Theres no reason he needs to raise 4x your cbet size with air.

If he's really as crazy as you say he is, then just figure out the best way to get money in, which imo is call call call.

[IowaSkinsFan]

I think just dumping it is the best option

[Ravageur]

I think 3-bet pre is fine in pos. I would probably just flat this deep oop pf because if he's peeling a lot (which I assume he is in pos and in rr pots it's going to be hard to both play the hand well and win a big pot oop with AKo unless he's bad).

I think I like checking flop, betting turn river or calling down would be good, but that might be influenced on seeing the c/r.

As is, I think I fold flop.

[bigspenda73]

thankfully someone else considered checking the flop, was beginning to think I was the only nitastic one here

[Numbr2intheWorld]

I think just dumping it is the best option

dude, no. Please read the hand again cause i dont see how you can come to this conclusion.

[Marshall28]

I think a few of us may have been misapplying the term "RIO". It's no more RIO to flat the AK this deep than it is to 3bet here this deep, particularly if we think the only times all the money goes in when we flop a pair we're crushed or flipping.

This doesn't change my stance on the issue though, 3betting is still far superior to flatting.

Spenda,
gross, how can you consider checking this flop? We're behind like 5%, villain expects our range to be VERY wide, and also it's a board we should be expected to fire multiple barrels.

It's terrible for metagame reasons also IMO.

[griffey24]

I think just dumping it is the best option

dude, no. Please read the hand again cause i dont see how you can come to this conclusion.

This was my first thought, though I must admit his sizing is very scary and very much like "I'm gonna raise huge to look like a draw, and stack AK" variety.

I think checking back this flop is bad, mostly because people will just perceive this as a pot control line and give you credit for a hand with some showdown value. I think a bet keeps more air in our range. That being said, I don't mind a delayed cbet on this board with air.

griffey that's pretty fucking brilliant because I snap fold to delayed cbets since people are SO likely to have a hand they want to show down and will hero call you like every time if you try to make a move

[Marshall28]

Against a weak/non observant opponent, I think going for a delayed c-bet as a bluff here is fine. If it's against anyone who knows what they are doing though I think it will be a disaster. Completely for the reason that we are 300bb deep; any hand in our value range that checks back the flop can basically never stand two big barrels on the turn and river. Villain could turn everything he has into a bluff and be extremely confident we fold by the river, he could also checkraise the turn with anything... we just never have AA/AK/AQ when we check (well, if we play good I don't think we should).

[IowaSkinsFan]

Actually checking the flop here seems good. We don't lose any value from Ax's, opp likely has little suckout equity. Also, it doesnt really matter that our flop cbetting range will now contain mostly air. Griffey makes a good point about pot control line here though, however im not sure it matters much since we likely only have two streets of value with this hand.

As played, I still think its a fold. I don't think opp is bluffing and I can't imagine him doing this with worse. I read the hand again.

[griffey24]

Actually checking the flop here seems good. We don't lose any value from Ax's, opp likely has little suckout equity. Also, it doesnt really matter that our flop cbetting range will now contain mostly air. Griffey makes a good point about pot control line here though, however im not sure it matters much since we likely only have two streets of value with this hand.

As played, I still think its a fold. I don't think opp is bluffing and I can't imagine him doing this with worse. I read the hand again.

I'm not sure if this is bad or warranted, and its probably exploitable, but I feel like in general I'm more likely to c/f a hand like 88-JJ if he cks back flop and bets turn than if he cbets the flop in the first place.

Not sure if I'm the only one that feels like this.

[Numbr2intheWorld]

You guys realize that this is co vs button, so you have the widest perceived 3betting range out of any situation in 6max.

[Marshall28]

As played, I still think its a fold. I don't think opp is bluffing and I can't imagine him doing this with worse. I read the hand again.

I can't even begin to understand this...

[bigspenda73]

marshall, checking the flop is obv a Jewish thing, religionbasedpoker ftw

[IowaSkinsFan]

I think pretty much any decision against the flop raise is marginal so its not worth arguing about.

Actually checking the flop here seems good. We don't lose any value from Ax's, opp likely has little suckout equity. Also, it doesnt really matter that our flop cbetting range will now contain mostly air. Griffey makes a good point about pot control line here though, however im not sure it matters much since we likely only have two streets of value with this hand.

As played, I still think its a fold. I don't think opp is bluffing and I can't imagine him doing this with worse. I read the hand again.

I'm not sure if this is bad or warranted, and its probably exploitable, but I feel like in general I'm more likely to c/f a hand like 88-JJ if he cks back flop and bets turn than if he cbets the flop in the first place.

Not sure if I'm the only one that feels like this.

that's exactly what I was talking about
last time I tried to bluff someone on turn + river after they checked back flop they called me with FUCKING KING HIGH ON BOTH STREETS
so now i just go for like sick thin value vs. that line and rape