6 max is gay

[Numbr2intheWorld]

Not many reads on villain, i dont recognize his name but he's definitely a reg and a tagg. He was running 23/18 or something so i thought the flop raise was good, i expect him to play back sometimes.

What do you do on the turn? I'm not sure if this guy knows me i assume that people think im pretty aggro.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $10.00 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

BB ($1524.50)
UTG ($1577)
MP ($1102)
CO ($3271)
Hero (Button) ($1000)
SB ($1160)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q, A
1 fold, MP bets $30, 1 fold, Hero calls $30, 2 folds

Flop: ($75) Q, 4, 4 (2 players)
MP bets $55, Hero raises to $140, MP raises to $290, Hero calls $150

Turn: ($655) J (2 players)
MP checks,

And now given what happens on the turn what do you do on the river?

Hero checks

River: ($655) 7 (2 players)
MP checks

[ZwiFT]

shove?

[ATOTHEC101]

I would have bet something gay on the turn, maybe $175, now I shove even if it is a slight overbet.

I check to call a river

[Alexos]

id check both turn and riv, how nitty is that!

[Da GOAT]

could u not level him and raise the min on flop, hoping he shoves.

Checking back turn is prob best but id bet river if checked to

[griffey24]

Shoving is kinda close. Our hand is sorta irrelevant in this kind of spot, and it's what villain has that is important. Villain is completely polarized here to air/missed draw or something that somehow beats us and will call and maaaybe sometimes KQ.

I think he might show up with like KJss or AJss or something sometimes too.

If he's the non-believer type and will hero call river cause spades missed then I don't mind a shove. I think in general we don't have that much value though on river, and it's possible he's checking strong again given that the draws missed. I don't think checking back here is too nitty really.

[jyms]

I think checking the river has him only checking back a queen. He's not folding better if we bet so that leaves us with worse hands we beat. Only way to get paid by them is to look bluffy and try to rep the Q. Bet like you don't want the call.

[Da GOAT]

also on the other hand he could have weaker Qs in his range given we could make a move here.

[griffey24]

also on the other hand he could have weaker Qs in his range given we could make a move here.

He's prob not opening Q9 MP, he might open QTs MP but might not 3bet flop with it and QJ beats us .... so the value is still only from KQ.

[Alexos]

If you guys are considering vbetting the river, you should consider vbetting the turn instead.

[jyms]

I still think you can only bet here if you think he'll try a hero call. Otherwise I C/C hoping he does something stupid.

[Alexos]

We're IP.

[ATOTHEC101]

This is the sort of spot between regs where noone gives the other any credit, so the 'what worse will call' analysis that's usually accurate for most spots doesnt apply as much to this one.

Also not betting the river is a crime after checking the turn, you obv don't have 4x after doing this nor a disguised overpair with your hand looking way more like a spade draw or a complete float that picked up equity on the turn. Once every draw bricks on the river and you have the very top of your range not betting would be so bad if you remotely care about balance.

However I see others points i.e. what worse can he have that plays this way? And tbh it kinda only looks like kq as I'd expect him to just flat the raise with worse qx's, but the fact your line looks so much like a missed draw will result in you getting looked up very lightly.

Yet it's far more likely he has a complete float himself or a spade draw, alot of these hands being helped by the turn picking up pair + draws or combo draws, which is why I'd bet the turn smallish trying to get him to spazz, maybe that's bad I dunno. It's just a spot where I or my oppenent are fos alot so when I have the stronger parts of my range I want to bet to balance for the times when I have nothing.

[jyms]

oops, HH messed me up

[meeloche]

If you guys are considering vbetting the river, you should consider vbetting the turn instead.

I agree with this and I'd probably b/c turn, I just never give anybody credit for checking turn with anything ahead of us in a spot like this. Too many draws to try and pot control this imo.

[Marshall28]

I think raising the flop and calling a 3bet in order to check back turn and river is pretty nonsensical. If you are raising the flop, I think that generally means you are attempting to induce. If you weren't trying to do so, I'd probably ask why are you raising the flop? You could get more value out of the hand by flatting and avoid spots like this.

Also, what's with people saying that this guy "could have Q9s or QTs in his MP opening range" ??? We have zero idea what this guy's MP opening range is, you are just applying your own ranges to what you think a "standard" player might have.

Massimo, do we have a % for his MP opening range--that obv would help a lot. If we don't have enough info on that I feel like we don't have enough info to raise the flop, particularly if we are planning on playing this passively when villain gives us action.

[Numbr2intheWorld]

I said already, it is an attempt to induce a bluff (or get a bad flop call). Once he 3bets his value range is probably only a couple hands worse than mine. One of those hands hit. So this means that i cant really value bet because he has nothing for me to get value from (this is my opinion...).

Calling may be a better option, especially considering the probable future board texture. Given the lack of reads on this player your probably right, Marshall, that this was a better option. I doubt there's that much difference though. If he goes bet/bet/bet and i call and win i only gain a little more money than if he 3bets my raise.

p.s. i dont have the mp pfr for the dude.

p.p.s. Alexos, i have a little dilemma in spots like this. You said you should consider betting the turn if your thinking to bet the river. But if a player has a bare flush draw, is he gonna call the turn push? And if he has a combo draw he's most likely just shoving the turn (unless its like KJ AJ, but those are two hands). But then again, should i just be protecting my hand?

[Numbr2intheWorld]

i know you said you'd check both just wanted to discuss that.

[meeloche]

What do you think about betting small. I think if I remember right you have like 750 or something. Betting like 290 or something.

[Marshall28]

What do you think about betting small. I think if I remember right you have like 750 or something. Betting like 290 or something.

After more consideration, I like this. Except I like doing it on the turn w/ the intention of attempting to induce again.

If we held the As, I'd be less likely to attempt this though.

[Ravageur]

put me in the nitty camp...i check river and expect to see missed draw or kk that figured he only had a bluffcatcher.

This seems like one of those hands where you need to offset the few times you get called by worse vs times you valuetown yourself vs times there was no point in betting (even though we're supposed to bet if we think we have best hand blah blah).

[nutsinho]

6max is gay? you are way more likely to own yourself in HU taking these lines than in 6max

[Numbr2intheWorld]

i just hate playing against ranges that are already narrowed down to 18% of hands preflop.

[Numbr2intheWorld]

Actually i just hate bein seemingly nitty. So what do you think of the line?

[IowaSkinsFan]

6max is gay? you are way more likely to own yourself in HU taking these lines than in 6max

So you say No to raising the flop?