Stopping abuse from reg

[Nakamura]

I've been playing quite a few DONs recently on PS and I'm noticing one of the best regulars is abusing me quite a bit. He will often wait until we are in the BB and push almost regardless of cards and position. Since I call pretty tightly, he is obviously looking for the tightest players on the table and abusing them (I haven't adjusted yet). Overall, it's a decent strategy and one I have used in the past and continue to use on occassion.

I have seen him push hands like T4o from a MP into out BB, so the question now is, do I need to make a few -EV calls to stop this abuse (which might be +EV over games in which I play this guy)? Or do we consider that if he didn't push, someone in a later position probably would have anyway. In response we just open our range slightly when this guy pushes into our BB.

[Extremophile]

How about their calling range at BB when you are SB? Maybe you can shove wider against these guys to break even.

[taipan168]

This sort of metagame consideration is the subject of quite a lot of discussion. If you are going to make an incorrect call for longer term EV reasons, I'd look for a spot that is slightly but not very -EV (eg. something like calling a shove with AK or AQ away from the bubble) just to let him know that you're watching and you know what he's doing.

That's assuming that he isn't playing so many tables that he won't even notice in the first place...

[drmcboy]

lol @ slowing him down with the AK call.

I don't think you can't beat him when he's OOP except by chatting so the other players start calling him light.

[taipan168]

lol @ slowing him down with the AK call.

I don't think you can't beat him when he's OOP except by chatting so the other players start calling him light.

If it's a spot where a good player would not call with AK it may get noticed if he's watching. Certainly in a 9-man SNG if I'm the big stack on the bubble with a microstack and the second stack calls my shove with AK or AQ I do make a note on the guy.

That said, I tend to agree that there isn't really much you can do in this situation other than play your best game to ensure that you've got as much an edge in the game has he does.

[drmcboy]

Are you implying he'll stop shoving T4 because we call with AK? I'm guessing he already expects you to call with AK. also you changed "away from the bubble" to "on the bubble"

[taipan168]

Are you implying he'll stop shoving T4 because we call with AK? I'm guessing he already expects you to call with AK. also you changed "away from the bubble" to "on the bubble"

If I see a reg call me wider than I'd expect, I'll certainly re-evaluate my shoving range. I'll still shove pretty wide but I might fold the worst 10% rather than shoving ATC. Maybe AK is not a good example but if I see him make calls that are obviously -EV I will definitely re-evaluate my shoving range

The reason I changed "away from the bubble" to "on the bubble" is that the divergence between chip EV and $ EV is much more acute and kicks in much earlier in a DON than a regular STT.

[TLR]

If he is pushing ATC or close to it, you make a call with a relatively wide range of hands that are probably EV+

[kevster]

Nice post, Naka.

I think I'd just widen my range here (blinds & stack size dependant obv) but only in the mid to late levels of a DON. Folding is still way + EV if the blinds are low.

Tai, AK is def. a bad DON example - There's nothing wrong with getting your money in with it IMO at least up to the $10s and therefore probably higher as I understand the game loosens a little at the higher levels anyway.

[myth2025]

My first post here, hopefully I will be of some help.

Ive been playing DoNs for a little while now and am now regularily playing the $50's (mini brag: on the DoN leaderboard for the $20 for avg winnings on harkscope) and I do use the strategy that Nakamura is talking about.

the matter of fact is that (especially in the turbos) blinds and antes rise to a substantial amount id say at about 100/200 and 150/300. two rotations with no steal on your part could take 1/3 to 1/2 your stack away so shoving ATC in position in my opinion should be optimal standard strategy.

As for defence against this strategy, i would say calling with a slight "+EV" edge occasionally to make a stand would not be advisable .. i often fold AQ, AK, etc. on the bubble unless you happen to be both the 5th and 6th ranked stacks because if you fold to said person, it would probably make you the target for elimination and I think it is a justifiable call.

I think that the best strategy (as mentioned above by a couple others) is to use YOUR position and abuse the stacks after you but be careful of shoving into CL uber stacks that may call lightly.

To sum it up, i think anytime that you have to call is just -EV in general because it benefits the entire table other than those 2 involved in the hand. ICM-wise im not sure how the math would work ... but generally speaking from observation and experience.

I hope I was helpful .. and sorry for the super long reply =/

[Nakamura]

Thanks for all the thoughts. I've seen him every day until I posted this, so I can't pwn his ass yet .

@Kevster, my opinion is this guy is used to playing higher levels and is really opening up his range against us once the blinds are getting higher. I think a slight adjustment is in order. If he's good enough, he will notice our range getting lighter and hopefully find someone else to crush on.

[reasons14]

There a select few regs whom I hate very very much. If I get the chance, i'll take a neg ev call vrs them as long as it is more neg ev for the. What I am saying is the play makes both of us lose money, they just lose more in the long run.