Too Many Good Tournament PLayers now?

[TheTournyKid]

With Poker never stopping increasing in popularity and new books/ sites helping people with there game, do you ever think there will be a surlapse of good players to bad players?

I was doing some research and i found some stats that said poker ( at least as far as MTT goes ) sharks to fish ratio is about 1 shark to every 10 fish or 10 percent of the fields are sharks making real good money, However in recent months/year(s) it has seem to increase from 10 to 20ish

I want serious peoples opinions on this please, do you ever think there will be just to many sharks in the water to find any good/decent profit from MTT


I personally play on stars mainly and make good money in the $50-$200 buy in tournys, however i have noticed the overall quality of play going up drastically fast


Any comments please feel free to shoot them out

[jyms]

There will always be a top 10% DUCY?

[drmcboy]

I think we already have plenty of terrible players, establishing a %age doesn't seem useful or possible to me. Most people are unwilling to work hard at doing much of anything, let alone their hobbies, and it takes hard work to become great or even good. So I'm not worried.

[sinister1]

I agree that the quality of play is getting increasingly better with players having less leaks. People 3 bet a lot more than before and have closer to optimal shove/call shove ranges, but all that said I think said people still have leaks and are exploitable. The one thing that most mtt players still suck at is post flop play. If you are good at this you have a decent edge in every mtt you join.

You could try playing more rebuys or deepstacked mtt's to maximize your postflop edge more instead of relying on pushbotting. You can also try playing on other sites that have softer competition. Bodog for instance is a terrible site but the level of competition is in the toilet so it makes up it. There is a huge leak on Bodog in MTT's that is almost site wide I see it constantly (even with the good players). People raise/fold too often when they are too short to do so. Very exploitable. Another leak is that short stacks do not have good shove ranges (usually too tight) and people fear the bubble much more here so bubble bullying is still great here. There may be other sites I do not play on that are similar (Cake possibly?) but Stars and Full Tilt certainly have a higher level of competition.

[Im_new]

I agree that the quality of play is getting increasingly better with players having less leaks. People 3 bet a lot more than before and have closer to optimal shove/call shove ranges, but all that said I think said people still have leaks and are exploitable. The one thing that most mtt players still suck at is post flop play. If you are good at this you have a decent edge in every mtt you join.

You could try playing more rebuys or deepstacked mtt's to maximize your postflop edge more instead of relying on pushbotting. You can also try playing on other sites that have softer competition. Bodog for instance is a terrible site but the level of competition is in the toilet so it makes up it. There is a huge leak on Bodog in MTT's that is almost site wide I see it constantly (even with the good players). People raise/fold too often when they are too short to do so. Very exploitable. Another leak is that short stacks do not have good shove ranges (usually too tight) and people fear the bubble much more here so bubble bullying is still great here. There may be other sites I do not play on that are similar (Cake possibly?) but Stars and Full Tilt certainly have a higher level of competition.

Also, if you're a fan of post flop play, look into 6-max. Personally, I've found myself to do very well at tournaments with 3000 starting chips, 6-max on Stars. (they are SUPER SUPER LONG THOUGH 6 hours+)

(On another note: I wish it were easier for American players to deposit on other sites using a plain old debit card... This is why I play solely on Pstars... I wanna branch out sooo bad.)

[revolvingiris]

lol @ people understanding push/fold strategy. The higher you climb the ranks obv villains are going to get better. There will always be money in this game to be made if you work hard enough at it.

[Im_new]

lol @ people understanding push/fold strategy. The higher you climb the ranks obv villains are going to get better. There will always be money in this game to be made if you work hard enough at it.

+ 1 million

[mcatdog]

Most people are unwilling to work hard at doing much of anything, let alone their hobbies, and it takes hard work to become great or even good.

/thread

[hopeful]

At the lower stakes what you describe is definately happening however it is making players more predictable and hence more exploitable.

Quite a large number are following specific advide and playing hole cards in a particular way. Very simple plays make more money than they used to. The float and the runner runner are typical examples.

[drmcboy]

Yeah I meant to add that people learning some could easily be a good thing for the game, esp MTT where usually you learn to be squeaky tight first.

[vaks]

I have been playing ring games for the past year, and am now trying to switch to MTTs but im only playing like 5-15$ MTTs mostly 90man SNGs..
but it seems like there are many more skillful players at ring then there are in MTTs. I'm just astonished at the horrible play at a lot of these SNG/MTTs.

Just thought I would throw that out there, ring has a much higher shark to fish ration compared to MTTs IMO

[Im_new]

I have been playing ring games for the past year, and am now trying to switch to MTTs but im only playing like 5-15$ MTTs mostly 90man SNGs..
but it seems like there are many more skillful players at ring then there are in MTTs. I'm just astonished at the horrible play at a lot of these SNG/MTTs.

Just thought I would throw that out there, ring has a much higher shark to fish ration compared to MTTs IMO

I think is true. For fish, a tournament is like playing a slot machine: there is a small fee for a potentially large reward. <--This, combined with the media pushing tournaments play and not cash tables, are probably reasons that make this possible.

[revolvingiris]

No there is an equal amount of terrible players in both. Cash players will always say they are better than tourney players but this just isn't true. The goals of each are so different, attempts to accumulate tourney chips is very different from trying to accumulate real $$ on the table.

Its also easier to build a BR using MTTs than it is cash. Eventually it gets to a point where playing cash can be more profitable (everyone in the high stakes forum). But I think once you reach a certain point everyone ends up playing both anyways.

[drmcboy]

Why would the format with the most swings be the best way to get a roll going?

the average standard of play at 200 plo is substantially better than all but the best MTTs, I can't speak as much to NLHE but in my experience it's true there as well.

[revolvingiris]

Yeah but thats 200 plo...Most people are just trying to grasp two cards!

MTTs do have the bigger swings but you can also luckbox your way to 4 fig pay outs or more (moneymaker). You cant do that with cash unless you short buy at a higher limit table (which a friend of mine did lol).

[drmcboy]

Are you seriously saying the easiest thing for beginners is to endure lots of swings and hope they get lucky?

[Extremophile]

SnG's seem to be a better way than cash games for me in terms of the time consumed. A 27-people SNG with $3 BI pays $30 in two hours but I don't know how much time would you need to make that money in cash games. If you have a good ITM %, to me SnG's look like an easier way to build a BR. I think it differs from one person to another because I had played SnGs with play money for almost a year.

[revolvingiris]

Are you seriously saying the easiest thing for beginners is to endure lots of swings and hope they get lucky?

No I'm not saying that...I'm saying you can make more in a shorter amount of time. I know I would not be where I am at right now if it wasn't for MTTs. Its much harder to climb the micros playing cash games than it is MTTs.

[drmcboy]

I mean of course it's easier if you hit a big score and quadzupple your bank roll, but most people will not do that and so they will lose money and quit poker. You have no data at all to back up that you can make more in a shorter amount of time on average. And the average would be dragged up by the X people that won the daily 30 grand.

You want to look at what's happening to the mean player and I am certain that new SNG/cash player's graphs are much more steady.

The other day you made a post about not wanting to suck anymore. Could that be because after this big score you've hit a bad patch? Happens to all players in all forms ofc, but MTTs most of all. It may have been easier for you but it's not going to be easier for most people. If you really think it is you're in for some sad days ahead.

[revolvingiris]

I mean of course it's easier if you hit a big score and quadzupple your bank roll, but most people will not do that and so they will lose money and quit poker. You have no data at all to back up that you can make more in a shorter amount of time on average. And the average would be dragged up by the X people that won the daily 30 grand.

You want to look at what's happening to the mean player and I am certain that new SNG/cash player's graphs are much more steady.

The other day you made a post about not wanting to suck anymore. Could that be because after this big score you've hit a bad patch? Happens to all players in all forms ofc, but MTTs most of all. It may have been easier for you but it's not going to be easier for most people. If you really think it is you're in for some sad days ahead.

I really don't want to hijack this thread but no...my post was during a downswing and I wanted to see if I changed anything in my game. Pretty standard post.... I haven't hit a bad patch (other than typical variance) and my BR is steadily increasing.

I started by grinding $1-$3 tourneys and built up from there. Its not hard to put $100 online and follow the same plan. And yeah if you go deep in one of those then you have a BR and can follow some type of BRM to continue to grow. Grinding 2nl or 5nl would take much longer IMO.